Ethanal Verry Ot

[DAVE KNOXX TENN]

I Have A Freind That Invested A lot .In The old Forum There was someTalk.I was needing more opinion.I Think its not a wise move.Lots of in and outs at this time.

[PatS....]

Not sure I get what you're talking about

[BobT-47P15]

My first guess is his friend has invested in the eathanol field.

[Norm's Coupe]

Not sure I get what you're talking about

Same here.

[Young Ed]

I was thinking the other night of trying to convert one of my old mopars to run e85. The biggest problem I see with it is e85 isn't sold everywhere

[PatS....]

Maybe he was sampling the main ingredient...which I tink I may do about now;)

[DAVE KNOXX TENN]

Not sure I get what you're talking about

Yes he invested a large sum.I Think it was not wise move.I was thinking of waiting a few months.Some one in the past had a greate knowledge of it and I was wanting more in put.He Dropped 10 mill.I dont want him to loose it.

[greg g]

Currently the whole Ethanol industry in the US is subsidized by the government. There was a company that was going to start up in a closed miller beer brewery nearby. Apparently their federal grant did not come through and the project is in limbo. Remember you are going against BIG OIL and BIG OIL is currently so entwined with our current congress and senate (noT to mention GW and DC) that any progress in the ethanol field will be officially controlled (stymied) so progress will be slow, the lip service to alternate energy will of course coninue ad nausiom.

There has been enough progress to date to screw up the corn market, artificially driving up prices of corn related products, of which there are thousands. Which begs the question of why the US etnanol industry is so inexorably tied to corn as the source when if you look at Brazil for instance, which is nearly 100% running on ethanol, refines theirs from waste products of sugar production, an I don't recall a hike in sugar prices as a result. Just in the news was an item about a company looking at using coal as the fuel to creat the heat needed in the refining process, which I believe is an energy negative or energy neutral process. so the envionmental folks had a field day.

Natural gas, propane and hydrogen seems a better place to be.

Had he given me his 10 million, I would have given him 5 million back immediately, invested the rest, and paid him 1/3 of the yield monthly, and lived on the rest. I will do the same for anyone looking for an immediate pay off for an investment..........

[1just4don]

Withthe simple carb set up,no elctronics,no sensors no nuttin on the old Mopars,,,,how hard would it be to get them to run GOOD on E-85 ethanol???

How would you have to tune it?? Would you have to change carb jets?? Timing?? What a cool thought,,,everybody driving OLD cars to use the E-85. First thing I KNOW it would have to be done,,,go thru and every place fuel touches rubber, or o-rings etc. you have to replace cause the 'old' rubber melts really fast with the stuff.

Kinda like the state patolman that stopped by here one day years and years ago,,, was trying to help somebody out when styrofoam first came out. Motorist ran out of gas,,all they had between them was a stryfoam cooler to put half a gallon in to get to town. Ran in the top,,,ran out the bottom.

How old of cars do you need to run straight ethanol? When did all the sensors and puters come out on cars??

[Young Ed]

There was an article in car craft a few months back where they converted a muscle car to run on ethanol. I don't recall if they were running E85 or if they someone were running 100%. I believe most of the mods were carb related. Of course in that car all the rubber parts were new already. I should find that article and reread it.

[Brad Lustig]

The only way to get an engine to run well on E85 and gas is to have a turbo, I think. Take a look at what Saab did. They actually utilize the higher octane of the E85 and increase the turbo compression. The car actually gets better mileage and higher horsepower with the E85. I have yet to figure out why the US is so bent on using corn to make the ethanol. And yes, there aren't many places to buy it. I've looked since my Tahoe can run on it. Since it costs almost the same to buy and you get less performance and lower mileage with most "hybrid" engines, it would mainly be for me to say I've run it...

I agree with Greg about natural gas, propane and hydrogen. Hydrogen and electric would be completely feasible today if we could get back into nuclear energy with a vengeance.

[1just4don]

,,,is it is not far off to get back to boot legger days and make your own. I would think for fuel use it would NOT need to be so pure.

I already talked to a guy in Kansas who was squezing his sunflowers and burning straight filtered squeezed juice in his diesels cut with 8-1 ,,,'gasoline',,,I alwys thought gas was BAD for diesels. Evidently not.

He says it took 500 acres of crops to pay for fuel on his farm. Now he gets all the years diesel he needs from 120 acres of sunflowers and uses the other 380 acres of crops to pay other bills,(which are always too many). BUT thats alot of difference,,and this was when fuel was CHEAP,,,better yet now!!

[PatS....]

Up here, Husky oil sells a 6-10% ethanol blend at their pumps for a bit more than regular. I have used it a number of times and had no problems.

Some detailed info on their website here:

http://www.myhusky.ca/husky_for_you/fuel/ethanol_blended_fuel/ethanol_faqs.html#q2

I have also read that it takes about 1.5 liters (this is Canada you know) to produce one liter of ethanol at the moment, so I'm not sure of the net benefit unless they can streamline the production some.

[1just4don]

They have had this stuff back here for years,,,I bought a new 79 Granda one time and always ran the ethanol blend,,,it actually improved its milage.

Those figures of 1.5 to 1 ratio of benefit are WAAAAAY outdated info,,,and was put out by the anti-ethanol people. It is FAAAAAAR better than that and quite positive to boot. I understand nationally we are burning about 6% ethanol as a whole. Care to guess what gas prices would be without that 6% supply???

As to the comment that it has driven the price of corn up TOO high. Anybody work for LESS than they did in the 1940's and 50's??? Corn was higher back then than recent give away prices. With costs going so high,,,cant corn follow?? On an adjusted for inflation number,,,corn is still way to cheap compared with years ago. Would you work for wages of the 50's??? Why should farmers that raise crops we ALL "NEED"

And corn raisers ARENT making more,,,the greedy seed corn companies,fertilizer suppliers,ALL inputs,even landlords can smell a dime and want YOUR share as well as there own!! It all goes as a pass thru. MUCH more risk tho.

here is my next point. Soon they will come up with a cheaper better process to make it and corn will go right back to where it was.,,,or less

Back to the original question. Yoiur friend is VERY astute investor. The HUGE profits being made by ehtanol investing is very rewarding.

The worm may turn as fast tho. I have heard of returning investment in like 3-4 years. pay off all debt in about same time,,,hope they do. Tanks and equipment wear out VERY fast, very corrosive. Too many plants built(and they are trying too) and an oversupply and boom their goes the market,,,or new technolgy and boom, all done. My guess is get in,make big bucks,,,get out and do over,,,stay with NEW technology!!

[Norm's Coupe]

Actually, there is an ethanol plant here in Wisconsin that is in the process of expanding right now. Think I read someplace though that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than it does to produce plain gas. So really, where is the savings.

Like I told my daughter just recently when she was complaining about gas prices going up again. Move closer to your work and you'll save money on gas and vehicle wear and tear. She lives about 35 or 40 miles (one way) from where she works, that's 70 to 80 miles each day round trip just to go to work. I know other people who live 50 and 60 miles or more one way from work too. I don't feel sorry for those people when they complain about gas prices. They are the ones who moved that far away. No one forced them to. If they moved closer to work, they would not only save money on vehicle and fuel cost, but conserve fuel too, making it cheaper for everyone. She then said she didn't want to live close to the city. So......told her to stop complaining about the cost of gas then.

So, it's not only the big SUV's etc. causing the fuel cost to go up. It's people like my own daughter.

[Ed Griffin]

I can only hope that they've improved ethanol from what it was like in the 80's. Seems that every time I tried using it I would get a bad gas clack from the motor. Had to try it because it was "cheaper" but only after a few "clacking" fill ups at the station I got away from any station that posted on the pump that it was using ... % of ethanol.

As for new resources we have plenty of choices. The problem with developing them or improving them has already been mentioned, big oil companies. There's a fellow in Memphis who has for a long time now been using used cooking oil for his fuel to run his car. They had a news bit on him awhile back showing the car and talking to him. He simply goes around town and picks up used cooking oil from various places and uses it. According to him it was not hard to make it work and even had a price to set yours up this way as well. The big joke of it all was the smell of french fries that the car exhaust gives off.

I look at all of it this way. If people like this can come up with simple yet effective solutions with their own funds, then all this talk of what to use and how much it costs to research is worth "doodly squat". There's an old saying which rings true with what we hear most every day on how low our reserves are, how much is in demand, and all the rest of the hooplah were fed and expected to beleive and it goes like this. "Dont pee on my back and tell me it's raining."

[rearview]

I just travelled from WI to Moab, UT last week. Got a laugh in Iowa. Their premium is .10-.20 cheaper than regular (and .50 cheaper than here) and the difference is they add ethanol. They sell the same gas in WI for a premium price. I'm feeling kinda screwed.

OT: did see lots of old cars and trucks in fields out thataway.

[DAVE KNOXX TENN]

Currently the whole Ethanol industry in the US is subsidized by the government. There was a company that was going to start up in a closed miller beer brewery nearby. Apparently their federal grant did not come through and the project is in limbo. Remember you are going against BIG OIL and BIG OIL is currently so entwined with our current congress and senate (noT to mention GW and DC) that any progress in the ethanol field will be officially controlled (stymied) so progress will be slow, the lip service to alternate energy will of course coninue ad nausiom.

There has been enough progress to date to screw up the corn market, artificially driving up prices of corn related products, of which there are thousands. Which begs the question of why the US etnanol industry is so inexorably tied to corn as the source when if you look at Brazil for instance, which is nearly 100% running on ethanol, refines theirs from waste products of sugar production, an I don't recall a hike in sugar prices as a result. Just in the news was an item about a company looking at using coal as the fuel to creat the heat needed in the refining process, which I believe is an energy negative or energy neutral process. so the envionmental folks had a field day.

Natural gas, propane and hydrogen seems a better place to be.

Had he given me his 10 million, I would have given him 5 million back immediately, invested the rest, and paid him 1/3 of the yield monthly, and lived on the rest. I will do the same for anyone looking for an immediate pay off for an investment..........

Thanks Guys.

[Guest tagree01]

Think I read someplace though that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than it does to produce plain gas. So really' date=' where is the savings.

[/quote']

There is a TON of propaganda on both sides of the fence. I think originally ethanol was very expensive to make, making government subsidies necessary. I wouldn't bet that is true any more. However, the proof is in the pudding: Brazil seems to be doing really well with their ethanol program. I say "seems to be doing well" because I wouldn't be surprised if the much publicized Brazilian success is just more propaganda.

In my mind, just about everyone claiming to be an expert on ethanol is biased one way or the other. I don't claim to be an expert, but I like the idea of not sending as much money to the middle east and Venezuela. That is my bias. My next daily driver will be a hybrid solely for that very reason.

[martybose]

I was under the impression that using Ethanol wasn't so much of a "savings", but it could significantly reduce our dependence on foreign oil. But who really knows anyway .....

Marty

[James_Douglas]

If you guys want to learn everything you ever wanted about corn, production, and subsidies...

Read "The Omnivore's Dilemma", by Michael Pollan.

A long and somewhat tedious but very very good book.

James

[Brad Lustig]

Another option for alternative fuels.

Had to beat Tim to it. I know he was probably looking for this picture

[Don Coatney]

Another option for alternative fuels.

Had to beat Tim to it. I know he was probably looking for this picture

Congratulations Brad;

You beat Tim to the dreaded red X

[greg g]

Well, last I looked still somewhat north of 80% of our imported oil still comes form Canada.

[DAVE KNOXX TENN]

I Have A Freind That Invested A lot .In The old Forum There was someTalk.I was needing more opinion.I Think its not a wise move.Lots of in and outs at this time.

Thanks All for your input. He is now trying to get his money back.The people he trusted SCAMMED HIM I see abigg court battle in the near future