Higher Performance 230 Rebuild

[40P10touring sedan]

Clam shell

LOL...awh for pete's sake.......duh, I have "that" version on my 201....I just didn't know the politically correct name...now I do{head hung in minor shame}

[Young Ed]

I'll gladly trade you the two tube style for a clam shell style one.

[40P10touring sedan]

I love the look and sound of the old flatties but I honestly believe it's a trade off for performance. These things just have too many design strikes against them to consider them a viable performance motor. You can take a $300 decent running 318, slap on a set of headers with a cam, aluminum intake, and a Holley and produce way more power than if you spent thousands on a flathead six. And even that 318 is 40 year technology. So my personal thought is that you pick one; nostalgic coolness or high performance.

I prefer the 3rd option- nostalgic coolness with mild performance...best of both worlds...best as it can get while retaining something different looking for the younger masses to look at and go "wow - what is that motor?"...they all know what the V6s and V8s are.

I'm the guy at the cruise nights drooling over any flathead{V or L}, caddy, nailhead, ohv straight 8s or 6s or anything from the statis quo...

...and if your going to do a lowly 318, might I suggest one of those 406 or better stroker kits.

[Don Coatney]

LOL...awh for pete's sake.......duh, I have "that" version on my 201....I just didn't know the politically correct name...now I do{head hung in minor shame}

I will gladly trade you for my P-15 loom.

[Plymouthy Adams]

in part........and if your going to do a lowly 318, might I suggest one of those 406 or better stroker kits.

all these folks that think you have to max build an engine..you taking the economy and long life performance built into the mill right out from the get go..most over can and install so high compression rate valve springs that hey wipe cams shafts every other month..not know there is a way to install them for a longer life..but these cams are never meant to idle..therein your problem

in today's high cost of fuel and such why build a car that you are not going to be able to truly enjoy..most are cruise relics, parade beast or other tokens of eye candy..and if you did decide to take it out and punch it...well Officer Opie is waiting to meet you...

[Rusty O'Toole]

It is kind of pointless to hop up a flathead anything, or even keep a 50 year old car on the road when you can buy a good running 10 year old car for a few hundred bucks.

Some of us just like old cars for their own sake.

I like the flathead, only if you like the car it came in. That means you are slightly stuck with it (not totally stuck with it). If you have an old flathead car you like, you may be surprised to find it is not totally useless but in fact, can keep up with modern traffic provided it is in good shape.

From rebuilding or overhauling the old flathead it is only a small step to do a mild hop up. This is a fun thing you can do as part of a rebuild or restoration, that gives you a little more performance without costing a lot of money.

That is about as far as I would go. Do a few things that don't cost the earth or spoil the car's smoothness but give a little more pep.

Of course some go farther than that, even race them and use them in Bonneville speed record cars but that is another question. Then it becomes a matter of getting the best performance within certain class limitations.

[Rusty O'Toole]

"I hear ya, I've tried 3 emails to paxton to ask them if they could get back to they're roots with a set up for a mopar flathead, like the kaiser had, except with a fixed pulley....nothing. It'd be a simple manner of respinning the blower faster than a V8 set up because of the lower rpms required for a flathead...question is what are the correct pulleys?:confused:"

That is why I suggested calling

John Erb, 4019 PONDEROSA DR. Carson City, Nevada 89701. USA. Phone: (775) 883-6494.

The McCulloch was designed for use on a flathead engine and was tested on Ford flathead V8s. When it was introduced in 1953 most engines on the market were flatheads and the biggest were under 350 cu in.

"B) Aren't those listed as an offset piston...in another forum where they concetrate on inlines it was asked what said offset was...no-one seems to know due to lack of available specs. I think it was a slant 6 .060 over piston that would work for the 265....?"

All pistons are offset pistons. Either the piston is offset or the cylinder is offset on practically every engine made since 1910. Most had offset pistons, the only engine I know of that had offset cylinders is the Ford flathead. In any case, the offset won't stop you from using the pistons. What will stop you is the deck height which is very low and bad for compression when used in a flathead.

"C) Yup, stock they have T bolts for clearance issues but another guy who's done well with 23" motors seems to be planning a 25" 265ci with 25" 231ci{?} longer rods and a high pinned piston for a larger than stock displacement. Still in the planning stage....{Hud 1 or Hudson...dad and son}

D) "1/8 overbore"...wouldn't that loose the sleave...I've heard the blocks are soft enough to require sleaves and that .060 was the max overbore with a sleave. I've seen the sleaves in my 265 and heard the 23" motors are the same, but, I haven't cracked open my 201ci motor yet to tell"

The blocks aren't soft but some industrial engines had sleeves for extra durability. Most blocks made in those days could be bored at least 1/8 oversize. It was normal and expected for the engine to be rebuilt a couple of times during its working life. Engines built since the sixties are not expected to be rebuilt at all except in unusual circumstances, and have thinner cylinders that will stand only a mild overbore.

Today, sonic testing will tell how far it is safe to bore an engine. A friend who has been racing and working on Chrysler B engines and hemis since the seventies, rebuilt a 1941 Plymouth six a few years ago. He told me they sonic tested the block and it had the thickest cylinders he had ever seen.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Rusty O'Toole

[martybose]

(snip)

Does anyone make a torque plate for the 230? Didn't see anything on BHJ's site- bummer! Cylinder honing with a torque plate makes a difference in engine breakin/longevity- well worth doing.

We made up a honing plate when we did the machine work on my 230 a decade or so ago. My machinist has since retired and moved, but I could check to see if he took it with him or scrapped it.

Marty

[Tim Keith]

I saw some scrap steel this weekend in 4 feet long pieces that would be suitable for a honing plate. Assuming I used a head gasket as a template and an Oxy-Acetylene torch for cutting the big holes, and lots of grinding to make the holes round, would I only need to have a machine shop run a surface grinder to make it flat? How thick should the honing place be?. This material was almost 2 inches thick.

[falconvan]

It is kind of pointless to hop up a flathead anything, or even keep a 50 year old car on the road when you can buy a good running 10 year old car for a few hundred bucks.

I certainly didnt mean to take it that far, Rusty. Im running a flathead myself and am perfectly happy with it. It's probably 100hp tops but I like it anyway. Im just saying that with the modifications he was talking about it he sounded like he was looking for some semi serious performance so in that case I wouldnt pursue dumping a lot of cash into a flathead. The technology just isnt there and you'll probably end up with a several thousand dollar engine that still wont feel very powerful. I think it hits a point that if you want your 50 year old car to perform like a street rod, you have to move up to a V8. And me being a penny pincher; I think a mild street built 318 is a nice next step for these cars. Now if he wants to run 10s; I'd really hack some people off because i'd be telling him the best modern bang for your buck is an LS1.

[Andydodge]

And if you guys are gunna run a 318...make it a REAL ONE, a Poly 318.........lol..........since 1973.....otherwise put some herbs in the Flatty..........lol........Andyd

[martybose]

I saw some scrap steel this weekend in 4 feet long pieces that would be suitable for a honing plate. Assuming I used a head gasket as a template and an Oxy-Acetylene torch for cutting the big holes, and lots of grinding to make the holes round, would I only need to have a machine shop run a surface grinder to make it flat? How thick should the honing place be?. This material was almost 2 inches thick.

Two inches is fine. The hardest part is drilling the headbolt pattern accurately. After all of the machining is done get it ground flat, and use a USED head gasket and torque the plate in the same order that you would a head.

Marty

[falconvan]

And if you guys are gunna run a 318...make it a REAL ONE, a Poly 318.........lol..........since 1973.....otherwise put some herbs in the Flatty..........lol........Andyd

That's a nice looking pair, Andy!

[maineSSS]

My aim here is to explore what modern technology can do for the flathead- if I wanted way more power, I'd simply go to a Chevy smallblock, as it fits the engine compartment without requiring irreversible changes, and parts are available everywhere. The BT4A Cummins is another popular- but pricey- transplant for this truck.

From what I can see, the best way around the compression vs flow problem is the 1959 head, which has a different transfer slot that allows flow AND compression. It would be nice to see someone take this design further with a new head. Heavily domed pistons and heads are not a good solution, that gives the absolute worst surface-to-volume ratio and negatively affects efficient combustion.

The Fish carb was better than the B&B, but I ended up having to make a new inlet valve seat using a Q-jet needle, as the original ball type leaked bigtime. I also installed an air/fuel meter in the exhaust to monitor its performance, and to check on the tuning proceedure. I tuned the low/medium rpm circuits, so far it's working pretty well. I haven't set the high speed circuit or set the carb for power, as the engine is tired, and the Fish supposedly tends to blow tired engines apart. It would be interesting to compare the Fish with a modern carb, as it was definitely an advance on earlier types, but whether it would beat a modern carb is still an open question.

BHJ quoted me a price of $850 to make a plate for the 230 from either steel of aluminum. For flatheads they open the valve area up so you can do a valve job with the plate attached. I asked about boring a scrap head (Google Ian's 230 Chrysler Flathead Build Photos, go to #13 ), their opinion was the cutouts would make it too flexible, as the head has voids for the waterjacket.

Edited June 18, 2012 by maineSSS

[Plymouthy Adams]

Fish carb tends to blow the engines apart..how can this be? what am I missing..a blower, supercharger or turbo application in conjunction with a carb (implies natural aspiration)...how is the engine going to blow apart when CFM of a tired engine is going to less as it is normally and regardless of throat..only x cfm is going to be sucked by the piston and compression is only the results of that cfm sucked..

[40P10touring sedan]

And if you guys are gunna run a 318...make it a REAL ONE, a Poly 318.........lol..........since 1973.....otherwise put some herbs in the Flatty..........lol........Andyd

Nice but what the heckl is that round thing between the water pump and the block on pic 2...nicer engine BTW...

[Andydodge]

Thats the adaptor that the guy I bought the engine from made up to run the OZ GM Holden water pump.........hopefully will see how it works soon.....andyd

[40P10touring sedan]

My aim here is to explore what modern technology can do for the flathead- if I wanted way more power, I'd simply go to a Chevy smallblock, as it fits the engine compartment without requiring irreversible changes, and parts are available everywhere. The BT4A Cummins is another popular- but pricey- transplant for this truck.

From what I can see, the best way around the compression vs flow problem is the 1959 head, which has a different transfer slot that allows flow AND compression. It would be nice to see someone take this design further with a new head. Heavily domed pistons and heads are not a good solution, that gives the absolute worst surface-to-volume ratio and negatively affects efficient combustion.

BHJ quoted me a price of $850 to make a plate for the 230 from either steel of aluminum. For flatheads they open the valve area up so you can do a valve job with the plate attached. I asked about boring a scrap head (Google Ian's 230 Chrysler Flathead Build Photos, go to #13 ), their opinion was the cutouts would make it too flexible, as the head has voids for the waterjacket.

I question the less efficient aspect of slightly domes pistons as I'd figure it'd send the charge over to the valves.

Yeah, get a cummins...all I've ever heard about those in ratrods is they have "stupid torque"...that's a good thing I guess-

I'd go steel for the torque plate unless it was made of 6065 or better(7000) series aluminum alloy...light weight doesn't make it hone any better and steel should be alot cheaper.

[Plymouthy Adams]

And if you guys are gunna run a 318...make it a REAL ONE, a Poly 318.........lol..........since 1973.....otherwise put some herbs in the Flatty..........lol........Andyd

Andy..the year 1973 throws some confusion into the mix at least to me..in 1966 the last of the Poly 318 and 1967 for some Canadians..now what was cast in OZ I have no clue and this may well be what you are referring to..I could believe they used it overseas for many more years..I mean it was the year 1969 that Chrysler cast the last Ford flathead V8

[james curl]

Would that be at Simca in France?

[Andydodge]

Tim, sorry for the confusion...lol.......I've had my 1940 Dodge since 1971, had the engine,gearbox diff, brakes all done by various "experts".....the engine was returned to me head & sump on.......I did 1500 miles from late 72 thru to Easter 1973 including a 1000 mile round trip to the 1st oz Street Rod Nats..........leaking oil from the rear main after this trip so I dropped the sump to fix the seal and found metal shavings in the sump...............lol........dropped the rear main and not good......the "engineer" who machined & rebuilt the engine didn't clean out the oil passages.........so.....being the budding 19yr old hot rodder I found a 1962 Chrylser Royal, 313 Poly & cast iron torqueflite..........installed the engine,box, diff & front brakes from April thru to rego time in November 1973 and its been like that since......other mods including full rebuild (and assembly by ME this time),4 wheel discs, rack & pinion steering, bucket seats, 2" widened rear fenders, paint, upholstery, etc done by 1976/77 and final repaint in August 1978 and there it is......everything apart from the vinyl top and chrome plating by me...upholstery by my mother........lol.

The last polys here in Oz were also 1966........Chrysler Royals used the 313, Dodge Pheonixs used the 318........the 313 in my Dodge has an 80 thou overbore using 318 plus .040 pistons...........andyd

[BeBop138]

I keep my eyes peeled regularly on ebay..nothing yet.

What's a clam shell?

I was sure I sent one home with you---let me check and will check for the other parts---we be BUSY this week for BTTF car show....later...........Lee

[BeBop138]

I think the majority of the folks here working the flathead is keeping more in line to what would have been done when these cars were in the beginning period and what little heyday they did enjoy...the WOW factor of seeing/hearing a dressed up and modified flattie usually will catch an eye faster than a V transplant..except maybe if old style hemi..that is always a eye catcher whatever it is in..

so while it will not be a 1/4 miler or a hole shot king of any short..but yeah...it will be peppy and different..while I have no desire to pep one up..I do not slam those who are. if they just keep in mind what the limits are and if the trade off on some mods are going to shorten the life of the car overall..I mean why go straight to the max bore of the block and the max shave of ahead when .030 will clean it up or .010 will save the head..leaving you plenty of margin for future builds/maintenance actions..what you looking at by doing this..maybe a whole max of 9-11 CI and a engine block that is now beyond normal service limits..

To me it is about the WOW factor--to do what you wanted to do to a engine when you were a kid and couldn`t afford it. Plus we do it because we can and it is fun.

[maineSSS]

Go Fast News Porting School #8 (Determining Optimal Port Areas) is a good overview of what should be done to the flathead to get flow and velocity up.

Google "Porting School #8" to locate the article on eurospares.com, then go to the directory http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/engine/Vizard/ to get the following illustrations for #8: .0391.jpg- Downdraft Angle, .0401.jpg- Port Shape Evolution, 0421.jpg- Real World Intake Port, 0431.jpg- Idealized Exhaust Port, 0441.jpg- Real World High Efficiency Exhaust Port.

This is what porting is actually about- finding the best shape and cross sectional area to maximize engine breathing efficiency. You need a sacrificial block to grind on, as you may penetrate the water jacket during port development, but the results will outperform the bolt-on approach.

Some think this will wear out the engine at an accelerated rate- not really. What kills engines is abrasive wear and internal rusting. If you use modern oil filtration (full-flow), modern air filters, and good antifreeze, and observe rpm limitations, the flathead should last as long as any other gas engine. Another thing to keep in mind is prelubing before startup- according to a TRW study done in the 80's, engine startup and the 1st two minutes of runtime were equal to 500 miles of warm engine wear. The same study also found that 40,000 miles of continuous warm engine operation was so small they had difficulty measuring it.

With respect to the Fish blowing apart tired engines- I think this refers to adding enough extra power to prematurely fail an engine that otherwise would have lasted. If you have extra power, you will use it, and that's not a good thing for worn crank/rod bearings, the end is not far off...

[Plymouthy Adams]

in part.....

With respect to the Fish blowing apart tired engines- I think this refers to adding enough extra power to prematurely fail an engine that otherwise would have lasted. If you have extra power, you will use it, and that's not a good thing for worn crank/rod bearings, the end is not far off...

Now to that end I can agree...lot of people think that they can do a upper cylinder refresh.. say valve job, shave the head, add a cam and extra CFM though better intake/exhaust and the big dog is ready to go...not so..the lower end is worn..the tendency to drive these cars a bit harder after said upgrade and the increased compression from attention to the top end will speed the wear process and will ultimatley lead to failure of the lower end..I have seen this happen on many an engine regardless of make..just poor attention to detail..the eingine works as an assembly..treat it as such when considering upgrades and repairs..it's false economy to cut corners...