"Canadian" Plymouth flathead specs?

[Broke4speed]

Hello all! I recently acquired a 1954 Plymouth Savoy Club Coupe, with an unseized inline 6 that's crying out for resurrection. I've noticed mention of the version of the L-head that was used in Canadian Plymouths, so I decided to measure mine. Sure enough, it's 25". I found a bit of info on Allpar that stated it was 228ci, but that's it. Is there anywhere out there that I might find more info on these engines? I'm in the middle of searching, but let me tell ya...there's a lot to go through here, lol.

I'm kinda tickled by this, because I've found a couple of Chrysler 265s up here, in old boats, and I was contemplating the swap. Having a long engine under the hood already will make it a LOT easier .

A pic for interested parties:

[Young Ed]

Looks like a great car. Very similar to Dads that we call the Toad.

[55 Fargo]

Hello all! I recently acquired a 1954 Plymouth Savoy Club Coupe, with an unseized inline 6 that's crying out for resurrection. I've noticed mention of the version of the L-head that was used in Canadian Plymouths, so I decided to measure mine. Sure enough, it's 25". I found a bit of info on Allpar that stated it was 228ci, but that's it. Is there anywhere out there that I might find more info on these engines? I'm in the middle of searching, but let me tell ya...there's a lot to go through here, lol.

I'm kinda tickled by this, because I've found a couple of Chrysler 265s up here, in old boats, and I was contemplating the swap. Having a long engine under the hood already will make it a LOT easier .

Here are the specs for Canuck 25 inch L head 6s made by Chrysler Canada in Windsor Ontario.

These specs were given to me by Bill Watson Chrysler Historian and All Par writer.

First the bore/stroke dimensions for the engines :

218.0-cid - 3.375" x 4.0625"

228.1-cid - 3.375" x 4.25"

250.6-cid - 4.4375" x 4.50"

The 218 engine was used in 1938-41 big Dodges, 1940-53 Plymouths and Plymouth-based Dodges, the 228 in 1942-52 big Dodges, and the 251 in 1942-51 US and Cdn Chryslers, 1951 Cdn DeSotos and 1951-54 US DeSotos.

[Broke4speed]

Awesome, thank you for the quick replies! The casting number at one point let me to believe it was a 218, so I guess I'll wait until there's a need to lift the head before I measure the bore.

Now...anyone know if the 54's are 12v or 6v? I've read that in 53 they switched to 12v, but my car didn't come with a battery so I can't tell. Are there any clues to a 12v car vs. a 6?

[55 Fargo]

This engine along with the 218, 228, 247,251 ,265 all shared the same block, cranks and rods created different strokes, as well as 2 sizes of pistons to create 2 bore sizes.

So in other words, your 228 can be made into a 265 by using a 265s crank and rods.

The bigger engines 251/265 sometimes also had full flow oil filtration, compared with by-pass oil filtration.

You 228 would have had stock HP at about 102 to 110 hp, all Canadian engines had 8 bolt cranks, so you could bolt up to either fluid drive or regular clutch, and there housings too.

The engines after 1951 had internal by-pass for the water pumps, as compared with earlier external water pump by-pass, your 1954 would also have a pressurized cooling system, the rad would have used a 4-7 lb cap.

You could literally use any 25 inch engine, and get some beef froma 251 or 265, if you so desired.....Fred

[Plymouthy Adams]

IF stock the 54 should still be running 6 volts..the generator tag and starter tag should be red in color..if green they would have been 12..now there is nothing here stating that over the ages things were not changed..but a sure tip off would be the headlights changed to 12 for no way the orig 6 volters would hold up to 12 volts usage...again you across the border but I did not think Mopar went 12 until 56

[RobertKB]

Welcome to the forum. Whereabouts do you live. Your picture kind of reminds me of the Fraser Valley in BC????? Any more pictures.....we love pictures on this forum.

That is a nice looking '54 you have there and it should make a great project for you. You don't see too many two doors around. I own a '53 Plymouth but it is a four door.

The long block engines are easy to pick up in Canada as they were all long blocks from '38 onwards. However, regarding marine engines. They were usually cooled by water taken from the environment they were floating in and rust inside the water jackets can be a major issue, especially if they were cooled with salt water. You will find the 228 is a good motor if in decent shape. That is what my car has. Hopefully you can get it running to see what kind of condition it is in. Check the compression for a beginning.

Lots of good advice on the forum and people are willing to share it.

[Young Ed]

Welcome to the forum. Whereabouts do you live. Your picture kind of reminds me of the Fraser Valley in BC????? Any more pictures.....we love pictures on this forum.

That is a nice looking '54 you have there and it should make a great project for you. You don't see too many two doors around. I own a '53 Plymouth but it is a four door.

The long block engines are easy to pick up in Canada as they were all long blocks from '38 onwards. However, regarding marine engines. They were usually cooled by water taken from the environment they were floating in and rust inside the water jackets can be a major issue, especially if they were cooled with salt water. You will find the 228 is a good motor if in decent shape. That is what my car has. Hopefully you can get it running to see what kind of condition it is in. Check the compression for a beginning.

Lots of good advice on the forum and people are willing to share it.

Good point about the marine engines. I believe he could stick the 265 crank and rods in his block and then the salt water issue wouldn't apply.

[55 Fargo]

Awesome, thank you for the quick replies! The casting number at one point let me to believe it was a 218, so I guess I'll wait until there's a need to lift the head before I measure the bore.

Now...anyone know if the 54's are 12v or 6v? I've read that in 53 they switched to 12v, but my car didn't come with a battery so I can't tell. Are there any clues to a 12v car vs. a 6?

Unless converted 1954 was 6 volt positive ground, check out the genny tag, is it green or red, does state on the voltage regulator.

[Broke4speed]

Awesome, I'll check the tag on the generator tonight. I haven't given it a good going over yet, as it's been a busy summer. I hope to get to it soon, and push it out of the garage for an inspection. I know the driver's floor is invisible, and there are a couple of holes near the headlights...as well as some iffy patches in the rear quarters . I love working with metal, so it's a good chance to learn some new skills I guess.

It was repainted a few years back, and the upholstery completely redone. The interior alone was a selling point for me, as I HATE working with foam and fabric. The paint is base/clear, with the clear peeling off...so I'll be addressing that eventually as well. For the moment, my plans change daily, but I think the stock engine will get a shot at life before any big plans take over. The only consolation I may make in that regard is to switch to an electronic ignition setup, such as Megajolt (probably a bit too modern) or a Pertronix-style distributor modification.

Thanks for making a newb feel welcome! I'll put up a few more pics as a thank you .

These are all I have, and work blocks photobucket, so I hope they're decent.

[Broke4speed]

Welcome to the forum. Whereabouts do you live. Your picture kind of reminds me of the Fraser Valley in BC????? Any more pictures.....we love pictures on this forum.

That is a nice looking '54 you have there and it should make a great project for you. You don't see too many two doors around. I own a '53 Plymouth but it is a four door.

The long block engines are easy to pick up in Canada as they were all long blocks from '38 onwards. However, regarding marine engines. They were usually cooled by water taken from the environment they were floating in and rust inside the water jackets can be a major issue, especially if they were cooled with salt water. You will find the 228 is a good motor if in decent shape. That is what my car has. Hopefully you can get it running to see what kind of condition it is in. Check the compression for a beginning.

Lots of good advice on the forum and people are willing to share it.

I actually live in south east Ontario, near Ottawa. It's a heavily agricultural area, and this car spent some time in a barn before I found it (as the old story goes). I am generally not a fan of the 50's body styles, but I adore the styling of this generation of Chrysler/Des/Ply/Do product. Made my wife happy too, because she has wanted me to build a 50's car for a while now. Made it easy to justify the purchase .

[BobT-47P15]

Hi.....welcome. Good looking coupe....that interior is nice.

Regarding the marine engine......I seem to recall from some past

discussions that SOME marine engines may turn in the opposite direction

than a car. Don't know if I'm remembering correctly, and don't know

what problem that would be if so.

If you don't have a repair manual and a parts manual, those would be

a great place to start your library. They contain a wealth of information.

[Rusty O'Toole]

Industrial engines came from the factory with the cylinders sleeved, possibly marine engines too.

The 265 or 251 crankshaft will fit the Plymouth block which can be bored to 3 7/16 or larger. So if you have the crankshaft, rods, and pistons you can make a big engine out of any block.

Chryslers from 1951 up had a full flow oil filter system. Older engines, and cheaper models had the partial flow or none at all. You can tell which you have at a glance. The full flow filter is an aluminum tower on the left side of the block. The partial flow filter hangs on a bracket and is connected to the block by 2 small pipes like brake lines.

So the primo engine would be a 265 industrial engine with sleeved block and full flow oiling.

The full flow filter is not a deal breaker but nice to have. It will not make much difference to engine life if you change oil regularly.

Some industrial engines had gear driven camshafts, car engines had chain driven.

Some marine engines were reverse rotation to be used in matched pairs with regular rotation.

54 was last year for 6 volt + ground.

[Broke4speed]

Red tag on the generator...6v it is! This may be blasphemous, but I will be rewiring the car with an aftermarket 12v neg-earth kit. I do not trust a 57 year old canadian salt-belt automotive wiring, especially since my Dad will be one of the principal drivers...and he's not very mechanically inclined . He wants to build this car with me, so I'll be taking the opportunity to teach him about cars.

Now...hopefully he listens better than I usually did. I don't think his old skull can take the cuffs I used to get for not paying attention .

[RobertKB]

Sounds like a fun project with your dad. Incidentally, there is nothing wrong with a 6 volt system and your car could be rewired that way. Most people have problems with 6V because of bad grounds. If you got the 12 volt route there are some issues you have to deal with but there are lots of threads on this forum that deal with that. All three of my flatties are 6V and I have no problems. Only one has been rewired.

[Plymouthy Adams]

different pattern on the interior compared to the usual gingham design here in the US..I'm kinda partial to that body style for some reason...I also nixed the gingham

[Broke4speed]

Sounds like a fun project with your dad. Incidentally, there is nothing wrong with a 6 volt system and your car could be rewired that way. Most people have problems with 6V because of bad grounds. If you got the 12 volt route there are some issues you have to deal with but there are lots of threads on this forum that deal with that. All three of my flatties are 6V and I have no problems. Only one has been rewired.

Oh, I understand that a 6v system can be just as reliable as a 12v. The conversion is more for simplicity's sake. While I am not building a mega dollar street rod, it does need to be 'modern-ish' in the event that it breaks down while in my father's care. It'll be a shared car, and while I trust my own work...if something were to happen to the car while my dad is on a road trip, it needs to be fixable by one of those early 20s parts-changers that pass for mechanics these days.

The flatty, fine, parts can still be purchased over the counter...but getting some kid fresh out of college to troubleshoot a 6v positive earth electrical system would be my worst nightmare. I'd never hear the end of it from my pops either. He's finally accepted the fact that I actually know what I'm doing with these 4 wheeled tinkertoys, I'd hate to have to live down a shorted out wire that I didn't replace .

[Broke4speed]

different pattern on the interior compared to the usual gingham design here in the US..I'm kinda partial to that body style for some reason...I also nixed the gingham

I dig that car!

The upholstery was done years back, by one of the previous owners. It doesn't tweak me wrong or right, so it'll stay on the merit of being one less thing I have to do, lol.

Another Q:

I found the block ID number, can anyone shed some light?

P25 2 20796C.

Obviously the P25 is Plymouth Savoy/Belvedere/Plaza, and the 2 is for club coupe, but I can't find any info on the rest of the numbers. Perhaps I've just searched too generally on the forum, my apologies if it's sitting under my nose and I've just missed it.

[bamfordsgarage]

... it needs to be fixable by one of those early 20s parts-changers that pass for mechanics these days ... but getting some kid fresh out of college to troubleshoot a 6v positive earth electrical system would be my worst nightmare ...

And do you think they will be able to troubleshoot your points ignition, generator, voltage regulator, carburetor or drum brakes? Maybe you should add electronic ignition, fuel injection, alternator, and disc brakes just to be on the safe side.

Or maybe send him off with a few spare electrical parts and a good workshop manual. That would be cheaper and easier!

[Broke4speed]

Lol, good points. It will have an alternator, a points-delete dizzy (have a six-window pertronix here I've been dying to use), and disk brakes up front. This all falls into the modern-ish upgrade plans, and I've already acquired the harness/fuse box.

Now, again, I'm not knocking the 6v system. It's plenty fine to use in a car like this, and can be just as reliable...but it's not the way I want to go this time around. When I build a car, I do it to be as simple and as 'replaceable' as possible...without ruining the original charm. 12v wiring is a simple job, and can be 'hidden'. It won't be a concours car, so no harm in adding a bit of mid-late 20th century electrical work .

(Not to dig my own grave a bit, but I am also a big fan of Megajolt distributorless ignition. I happen to have a unit here that would allow me to run coilpacks from a later model car, and provide a fully mappable ignition system. I've used it on other carbed cars, and the change in the way the car runs is amazing.)

Edited September 15, 2011 by Broke4speed

[B-Watson]

I dig that car!

The upholstery was done years back, by one of the previous owners. It doesn't tweak me wrong or right, so it'll stay on the merit of being one less thing I have to do, lol.

Another Q:

I found the block ID number, can anyone shed some light?

P25 2 20796C.

Obviously the P25 is Plymouth Savoy/Belvedere/Plaza, and the 2 is for club coupe, but I can't find any info on the rest of the numbers. Perhaps I've just searched too generally on the forum, my apologies if it's sitting under my nose and I've just missed it.

P25 2 20796C -

P25 - 1954 Plymouth

2 - Savoy / Belvedere (Plaza engines had "1")

20796 - 19,796 P25-2 engine built

C - made in Canada

6 volt or 12 volt makes no difference when troubleshooting problems. Whether alternator or generator, mechanical voltage regulator or electronic, the basic principles are the same.

Just make sure the person who works on the car understands points and condensors. The one difference between a 6 volt car and a 12 volt is the fact the 12 volt has a ballast resistor in the ignition system and the 6 volt does not. The BR reduces the voltage to protect the points. 12 volts will burn them out fast.

By the way, Oldsmobile, Buick, Cadillac and Imperial switched to 12 volt in 1953, although Imperial was still positive ground. Chevrolet and Pontiac switched for 1955, and the rest of the American auto industry followed in 1956. Any makes that had 6-volt positive ground systems adopted negative ground along with 12 volts.

Chryco drum brakes were the best on the market back then. They used Lockheed brakes that are a little difficult to set up when installing new brake shoes, but they are easy to adjust after that. They are not self-adjusting so you will need to adjust them every 20,000 miles or so. Which also coincides with the manufacturer's oil change and lubrication times.

The parking brake is a drum mounted at the rear of the transmission - referred to as a "tractor brake" by some back then.

The upholstery looks great, by the way. Gives the interior a classy look which is perfect for a Belvedere, the fanciest Plymouth.

Bill

Toronto, ON

[Rusty O'Toole]

How are you planning to change to 12 volt? Not being smart, I really want to know.

I have changed a few old cars trucks and tractors but would not do it again. Too much work and expense, not enough benefit.

I find it is easier to leave it stock and fix whatever is wrong.

Just wondered if you have some easier method of changing to 12 volt.

[Broke4speed]

No easier way I guess, just a lot of available time. I've got a 21 circuit (way overkill, but it was only $20 more than the 12 circuit) 12v harness kit, and a sick love of wiring work. I work painfully slow, tackling one thing at a time, so I figure it'll take a while to do.

[moose]

54 was last year for 6 volt + ground.

Somebody at the factory must have accidently put a 6 volt in my '55!

Unless Canada was different...

[Broke4speed]

Somebody at the factory must have accidently put a 6 volt in my '55!

Unless Canada was different...

More true than you know. We usually end up getting the parts-bin specials, or the 'unique' to Canada models...which means zero aftermarket support.