Dodgeb4ya Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) 1952 and later Dodge/Plymouths used a "Follow Through " type Bendix drive. The pinion gear sometimes will be extended as shown-this is normal-seen it lots of times. Leave it as is. When installing an extended drive gear, be careful to index the pinion gear into the ring gear. When the engine starts the pinion gear will be spun back to the retracted position by the faster speed of the ring gear. This is clearly stated in the 1954 Plymouth shop manual. Bob Edited July 7, 2011 by Dodgeb4ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Take your starter over to your bench grinder with the wire wheel. Check which way the starter turns, then start the bench grinder and place the bendix on the wire brush to turn it the same direction as the starter turns and that is like the engine starting and overrunning the bendix to make it return to the at rest position. Have watched the people at the starter shop return the bendix to the at rest position by doing just what I told you to do. OK, I tried that and it made no change in the position of the bendix with either starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 While I definately do not want to do it, I am about to the point of pulling the transmission and changing to the 218 flywheel to see if that makes a difference. I am to the point of not knowing what else to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 The combination of parts I used is as follows. Desoto long block engine, P-15 flywheel, and P-15 bellhousing. On this Desoto engine the lip on the crankshaft where the flywheel bolts on sits further towards the transmission side by about 3/8" thus effectively moving the P-15 flywheel back. After careful measurements I found that with this combination my starter gear would not fully engage the ring gear on the flywheel. This sounds the opposite of your problem. My fix was to releive the bell housing where the starter bolts on so the starter gear will engage the flywheel ring gear. This was my fix and I am not suggesting you do the same unless you find that you have the same problen that I had. And if you do find that you have the same problem take your own measurements as yours may be different than what I used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Horne Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 While I definately do not want to do it, I am about to the point of pulling the transmission and changing to the 218 flywheel to see if that makes a difference. I am to the point of not knowing what else to do. I bought a 1956 12 volt starter for my 38 Coupe that has a 218 engine. The 57 starter, or newer, I believe are longer at the stout. If the 57 starter is longer it will engage a little too far, causing a bind...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Measure the snout of the 218 starter VS the 57, then shim the new starter back from the bell housing with some washers, if that clears the binding, than maybe you can fabricate a plate that spaces the starter out from the bell housing what ever the effective distance is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldodge41 Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 If it were me, I would try shimming the starter back from the bell-housing with some washers as Greg suggested. If this alleviates the problem you can then decide whether to pull the flywheel and inspect it and the crank flange or make a permanent spacer for the starter. In the picture you posted both starters appear to have the same snout length. Keep us posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Well a bit of an update. Good News / Bad News kind of thing. Took Greg's advice and spaced out the starter took about 3/8 inch. Actually used two of the very thick washers from the original manifolds. Pulled the plugs, added some oil to the cylinders then got it to cranke enough to build some oil pressure. Put the plugs back in and got it to fire and run for about 3 seconds. Starter sounded like hell and was not spinning the engine very fast. My wife pointed out a puddle under the car and i found that the line to the oil pressure gauge was leaking. Fixed that then tried to start it again and the bendix was not engaging, just grinding like there was a bad spot on the flywheel. Switched to some slightly thinner spacers and gave it another shot. Pushed the starter button, clunk, click then nothing. Lights etc still work but the thing is totally dead when you push the starter button. Was tired and hot (over 100 today), so I just closed up the garage and took a shower. Will get back to it tomorrow. Not an electrical genius in fact more of an electrical dufus. So, this should be fun trying to figure out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Flanagan Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 An electrical dufus you say? I did not know I had relatives in Texas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 An electrical dufus you say? I did not know I had relatives in Texas. Oh yeah, I come from a long line of Kentucky dufuses. Maybe one of these days I will share the complete story of my cousin (a real winner in life's lottery) who ran off with the 14 year old daughter of a preacher then held my grandparents hostage. While recovering in the State Hospital, he met another "patient" who was a prostitute in for rehab and married her. They had a daughter but the love just didn't last, so they were divorced within a year. Then the genious married his ex-wife's sister who also happened to be a prostitute and they had a kid, but alas this love fest didn't last much longer than the first. Needless to say, I have "lost" total contact with that side of my family. And I even have a cousaunt and a cousunc as my wife calls them. Cousins by birth, but aunt and uncle by law as my grandparents adopted them at about 8-10 yeasr old when there mother decided she didn't want them. I think I am the about the only "normal" one in the whole danged family tree. But I am getting a bit O/T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldodge41 Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Possibly damaged the contacts in the starter solenoid (relay) when the starter was binding and drawing excessive current. If the contacts burnt they may now have enough resistance that they won't transfer enough current to run the starter. Hard to diagnose from afar but I would look at the relay if the starter runs ok on the bench. Any plan for what to do about the depth issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57plymouth Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 You need to use your 218 flywheel and starter. Just like you were told on Forward Look, you MUST match the bellhousing to the starter to the flywheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 You need to use your 218 flywheel and starter. Just like you were told on Forward Look, you MUST match the bellhousing to the starter to the flywheel. I do not believe that the bellhousing is the issue. The bellhousing has nothing to do with the physical spacing of the flywheel only the starter. Through measurements I have verified that the 218 and 230 bellhousing both place the mounting surface of the starter flush with the rear face of the block. The spacing of the starter from the side of the block is also the same on both bellhousings. This is figuring to be more an issue of the starter itself. If in the long run it proves to be the bellhousing you will be the first to know and I will say "you told me so." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobT-47P15 Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) Kirk, I guess I missed this part of the story somehow..... What model year is your engine? What model year bellhousing are you using? What model year are the clutch, flywheel, starter, etc from? There were some differences in things over the years, that could contribute to your current problem. For example, when having the 1953 engine installed in the brown P15 coupe, I tried to use the 1941 bellhousing that had been on the engine, as that engine was previously in a 41 Plym. It was too long, and wouldn't fit in the car. Had to use one from another P15. This may have no bearing on your deal, but there were some differences in stuff. Do you have any other starters to try??? Oh.....in answer to a previous question......I doubt the convert will be ready in time for the HAMB Drags. I'll just have to ride around with you.....:D Edited July 8, 2011 by BobT-47P15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57plymouth Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 I do not believe that the bellhousing is the issue. The bellhousing has nothing to do with the physical spacing of the flywheel only the starter. Through measurements I have verified that the 218 and 230 bellhousing both place the mounting surface of the starter flush with the rear face of the block. The spacing of the starter from the side of the block is also the same on both bellhousings. This is figuring to be more an issue of the starter itself. If in the long run it proves to be the bellhousing you will be the first to know and I will say "you told me so." You are missing the point. The 218 and 230 flywheels are not the same dimensionally, and the ring gear is located differently in the bellhousing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 You are missing the point. The 218 and 230 flywheels are not the same dimensionally, and the ring gear is located differently in the bellhousing. Brian; Good to hear from you. I have not seen you sence Kanappolis 2007. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 You are missing the point. The 218 and 230 flywheels are not the same dimensionally, and the ring gear is located differently in the bellhousing. I understand what you are saying about the flywheels being different dimensionally and setting in a different location within the bellhousing, but with the mounting surface of the bellhousing being the same on both bellhouses changing the bellhousing would have no effect. The 57 model 230 bellhousing is longer than the 48 218 bellhousing but the additional length is on the transmission side of the bellhousing, not the front side where the starter is mounted. I am using the matched set of 230 crank, flywheel and starter. The only difference is the bellhousing which on the mating face is the same as the 230 bellhousing. If I switch to the 218 flywheel and starter to match the bellhousing, then I will have issues the other way as the 230 crank has a thicker flange and the 218 flywheel does not have the recess to fit the flange. This would move the flywheel too far back and the starter would not engage the ring gear. Then I would have to do as Don did and have the mating face of the bellhousing machined to move the starter closer to the ring gear. Don't think that I don't appreciate your suggestions, in fact after your posts on Forward Look I went and measured everything again. I just can't make the numbers come out right with changing the bellhousing or the flywheel/starter. I have now taken both the 230 and 218 starters apart, the 230 had a much more "sluggish" bendix. So I am going to clean everything up, lube it well, add new brushes, bushings and hope that is the issue. If not anybody have a good poly motor and transmission they want to trade for a 230 and O/D? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james curl Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 This year at the Lone Star Round Up there was two fellows from Kansas with a 270 Poly engine and transmission,complete with all accessories on an engine stand, the whole package for $100.00. They wanted to leave in a short time and I did not have time to drive home and get my pick up and drive back before they left. Guess I could have asked them to come by the house and drop it off on their way back to Kansas but I had no idea where I would store it, did not need it anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Horne Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Not all 230s are the same when it come to the starter/flywheel match up. A 1957 230 starter will not work on my 1956 230 engine, as the 57 starter engages a little further in. My 56 engine had a 1954 6 volt starter on it when I first got the engine, but I now have a 56 12 volt starter on it, and a 56 12 volt starter on my 218.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Just came in from the garage after getting it to fire and run for a couple of minutes. Have a couple of leaks to take care of in the morning but at least it has a heart beat. I took the two starters apart knowing that the 218 starter was good, and the 230 starter didn't sound too good and was turning rather slow. Once apart the bendix on the 230 starter was very "sluggish" when I would run it out then let go it took its sweet time retracting, while the 218 snapped back quickly. So, I took the bendix apart and put the gear portion of the bendix from the 230 on the spring/screw portion of the 218 bendix. Cleaned up the armature, wire brushed the inside of the bendix bore, used some emory cloth on the armature shaft, then lubed it all with oil and reassembled. Tried a couple of different spacer thicknesses working my way in until I was getting consistant engagement. Right now the starter is spaced out with a single lock washer on each bolt. I believe that I could remove those washers and still be in good shape and may in fact give that a shot tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldodge41 Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Good news, I'm glad you stuck with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 good old mix and match. when you get it running and driving give us an impression of the seat of the the pants difference between the way the 230 drives compared to the 218. Glad you got it bodged and working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIPJOBXX Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Been following your post and it sounds like you almost got your problem resolved. Glad to hear that because I have been down your road many times and without the help of people here I know I would be lost sometimes. Jon:cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted July 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 good old mix and match. when you get it running and driving give us an impression of the seat of the the pants difference between the way the 230 drives compared to the 218. Glad you got it bodged and working. Waiting on a new starter solenoid to come in. Leaving tomorrow for a "business" trip to Phoenix which just happens to coincide with the MLB All Star Game weekend, so it will likely be next weekend before I get to really drive it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Been following your post and it sounds like you almost got your problem resolved. Glad to hear that because I have been down your road many times and without the help of people here I know I would be lost sometimes. Jon:cool: I hope you now realise how easy it is to follow a problem from start to finish on one thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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