wayfarerstranger Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 I need someone to clear something up for me i know PLYMOUTH didn`t start using the 230 motor until mid 54 but in 53 they had hydrive transmission which is basically an updated fluid drive , so was the motor in the 53 PLYMOUTH a 218 with a 8 bolt crank for the hydrive ? reason i ask is because i have this 1950 DODGE w/fluid drive but the engine is a P24 & it has a 8 bolt crank & was trying to figure out if it was from a HYDRIVE car or did someone do a rebuild with the 230 parts ?? THANX for any info CHANCE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martybose Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 I believe that a 1950 Dodge would be a 230, not a 218. Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 Maybe they swapped in the dodge crank. The Hy drive has a specific block and bellhousing that are not interchanable with either dry or fluid drive without modification. Remember hy drive used that funky shared engine / transmission oil deal. so the associated plumbing between the block and trans passed through the bellhousing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 Chance, I think your assumption is correct. The hy-drive encorporated a torque convertor with 2.6 multiplication thus would probably need the the 8 bolts crank...not sure if that info is in the book either...member P241953 ought to be able to answer this as he just converted to OD in his car that is originally a hy-drive. The Hy-drive also got a beefier transmission with different gear ratios..these and a body mod here or there, different engine block etc etc.. To ascertain the engine as a 218 which by block stamping it will be..for you to rule out the possible upgrade to a 230 by a PO you will need to measure the stroke through the access hole provided for in the head at #6 cylinder. If it strokes out to the 218...you just confirmed the 8 hole crank.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfarerstranger Posted April 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 YES TIM i am going to do that test on the stroke just haven`t got around to it this is a car i bought last year & it has been it storage just was working on it yesterday and was trying to Figure out what someone else had done since it is still f/d but the block is stamped P24*230344* the head is also stamped with the big P & 11.8.54 i`m guessing 54 head couldn`t find a date on the side of the block but i`ll look again . I pulled back the cover where crank bolts to the f/d unit & there is 8 bolts thought i might see 4 or 6 bolts ?? not being able to speak with the person who did this swap i need to solve the mystery .First i`ll check the stroke if it is 4 5/8 i will know it had a crank swap , if 4 3/8 i`ll know it is a 218 from a hydrive and wonder what they did about hole where the engine oil goes to the tranny if that is the case maybe the builder knew what he was doing and plugged it if not there would probably be a mess of oil every where and the car couldn`t have been operating properly ... or they could have just drilled out the other 4 holes on the crank flange . ANY way i would like to know as i believe the engine was rebuilt and has very low miles & thought about using the engine in my WAYFARER CONV. & putting the 48 230 i have on the ground in this MEADOWBROOK as it is to nice to part out it has a nice paint job & BRAND NEW grey interior seats, doors & headliner chrome is in good shape it has a complete brake rebuild on it , it looks like a 4000.00 car i just need to replace the fuel pump this week so i can keep it running and check everything out . I need to detail engine compartment & wood grain the dash & other inside trim before i sell it in a few months ... thanx for all the input ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfarerstranger Posted April 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 Just had a thought , maybe i need to look closer at the tranny i guess there could be a possibility that someone just dropped the entire PLYMOUTH engine & HYDRIVE in this car ? is that possible ? would it bolt right in on the DODGE cross member/rear engine mount ? do the 2 tranny`s look a lot a like ? i`ve never dealt with HYDRIVE so i don`t know , time to find some pictures ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 (edited) I would have to refer you to the book on identification of the torque convertor vice the fluid coupler in appearance...the Hy-drive could be placed in high gear and with the 2.6 multiplication of torque would accelerate quite nicely..that was a basic selling feature and the stop gap meet before the full automatic 2 speed..if you see a firewall mod (read this as slam hammer dents) the swap could have been made..but as it is the Dodge body that normally got a larger bellhousing..this could again be mute.. maybe you could sample the oil in the convertor..if engine oil..again, you have your answer..the trannies were about all the same..a hy drive could be great in your neck of the woods..the torque convertor had enough umph to hold on a hill at idle for the most part.. Edited April 22, 2010 by Tim Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 You've got other possibilities there too. Trucks had 218s with 8hole fluid drive cranks. Someone possibly could have drilled extra holes too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 think Chance is trying to focus on the P24 identified block casting..his previous question is could he have the hy-drive is probably the one single item that will solve the riddle.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfarerstranger Posted April 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 (edited) yes i have a truck engine 218 with 8 hole crank i had in my 52 WAYFARER COUPE , i kept it when i sold the car .. but this engine is stamped P24 not a truck engine . if it all checks out running wise i will pull this engine take the tranny off and figure it out ,, ANOTHER NOTE of course this could have been changed too but the manifold does not have a place for the automatic choke although back toward the firewall looks like some thing was bolted to the manifold at one time ? did the PLYMOUTH HYDRIVE not have automatic choke ?? the PLYMOUTH 230 54 engine i have in MY woodie has the automatic choke ? this thing is beginning to look like a hienz 57 ?? Edited April 22, 2010 by wayfarerstranger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p24-1953 Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 the hydrive should be easly identifiable from the torque convertor. my stock 53 did have a 8 bolt crank, and has a auto choke mounted to the manifold. by the way when set up right the hydrive is great to drive around. george asche informed me that aside from the beefed up input shaft the transmisson internals are the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p24-1953 Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 also a easy why to identify a hydrive is it will have neutral saftey switch in the gear selector housing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48mirage Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 I pulled the manifolds from a P24 at a local yard and the automatic choke was operated by a heat tube through the exhaust manifold. I incorporated this heat tube into my mods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 HY drive and standard tranny do not have the same gears..they are HyD 1st 2.37 to 1 as to 2.57 to 1 on the standard HyD 2nd 1.68 to 1 as to 1.83 to 1 on the standard HyD 3rd 1.00 to 1 with the standard the same HyD reverse 3.46 to 1 as to the 3.48 to 1 in the standard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p24-1953 Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 tim your are correct I supplied george with a nos input shaft and he supplied the remainder of the hydrive gearing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p24-1953 Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 although tim, george informed me that he could infact install the fast second in my car because the main gear set from a standard 3 speed could be mated to the hydrive input shaft. so again aside from the input shaft it sound like the internal parts are interchangeable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 (edited) that is true and I think I asked if you were going to go that route when you first mentioned the OD upgrade...howver it appears the mutiplication of torque combined with the gear ratios of the Hy Drive tranny is a pure winning combination..it was reported that the little 218 Plymouth, comprobable Ford a Chevy could all be placed in third gear and from a stop, the acceleration of the Plymouth left them in its dust..of course the 218 Plymouth smokes the Pontiac straight 8 per comparision test of 1952..so is that really saying much except the competition was not really competition.. Edited April 22, 2010 by Tim Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Benjaminson Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 Easy way to tell if its a 218 or a 230. Both engines have a P25 prefix. However - the 230 will have what appears to be a diamond between the P25 and the sequential serial number. No diamond - a 218. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 actually the diamond in before (left of) the P25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfarerstranger Posted April 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 THIS is a 1953 P24 NOT a P25 & to confuse it even more i have P25 ENGINE with the diamond & it is 4 bolt 218 ??? go figure ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 Chance..as we do know it is not an automatic, is there an adapter plate between the engine and the bellhousing...??? both the Hy Drive and the later Powerflite ahs an adapter plate between engine and bellhousing...and yes the book shows the Hy Drive must have the 8 hole crank.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfarerstranger Posted April 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 I will check all this out in a few days when i get back to the car , probably be sunday thanx for all the input ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobT-47P15 Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 This is a pic of the engine in the 1954 Savoy I bought a couple years ago. I don't see a sisson choke in the shot. Don't know if this helps with anything. This car had the powerflite transmission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 the 54 carb should be one with a enclosed heat coil in the indexable cover with external choke heat tube running to the manifold..in the first picture you can see the black plastic choke housing..the next is the manifold that is not drilled and tapped for the Sissions choke to mount.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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