Soon, it might not be taboo to drop in that SBC (kinda OT)

[Brad Lustig]

It might be in the same family

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,252396,00.html

[vitamindart]

that would end me buying any more mopars , and i though gm was going bellie up itself they have been selling everything they could ,they sold there subaru shares to toyota

[PatS....]

I don't see what the problem is. If people really cared about domestic jobs, they would buy domestic. The fact is that the majority of Americans and Canadians don't buy domestic.

So, the whining about jobs lost seems disingenuous. Let the domestic manufacturers go under. They only build junk if you believe the hype, so who gonna miss them?

The fact of the matter is according to JD Power, domestics and "imports" are neck and neck as far as reported initial problems go.

I don't see the upside of GM buying Chrysler. I think linking import sales to sales in Japan and Korea of US made cars, and demanding that cars sold in the US and Canada are built by people being paid comparable wages and benefits to domestic workers would even up the playing field. Then see who comes out on top.

[Allan Faust]

I agree with you completely Pat... I've never had an import for a vehicle...

and I've seen lots of people complain about foreign cars.....

Allan

[Normspeed]

I've owned stuff from the all big 3, Mazda, Toyota, Volvo, BMW, Anglia, Opel, (OPEL???), you name it. Loved them all for what they were. It's sad to see the big 3 fading from glory in the new car industry.

My son has one of those Dodge Neon SRTs and that thing is very impressive, and no major problems in 2-3 years of use. The first time he took it from zero to 110 with me in the passenger seat (manual trans), I can tell you I haven't experienced that kind of acceleration rush in a factory stock car since the big factory Mopar days of the 60's. But the kids buying most of those types are going for Mitsu, Toyota, Nissan and the like. More aftermarket stuff for those.

[Johnny S]

Not sure where it will all end up. I've owned a couple Fords, a lot of Chevy's, a couple Pontiacs, a couple Buicks, a lot of Mopar's and one foreign car in disguise....a LUV 4x4 pickup. I think the issue of "quality" is more bogus than true these days. Driving a Chevy (or a Ford or a Mopar) just isn't "cool" enough anymore for reasons that will always escape me. I haven't had a difficult time with any of this array of American made vehicles at all. I even ran a Chevrolet Cavalier stationwagon 215,000 miles on the original clutch and engine. And the engine wasn't using a lot of oil when I had to dump a new clutch in her. Never had to pull the head or replace a water pump. I think an alternator and a starter were about it. I'm still all for buying from the true U.S. automakers rather than from any of the overseas vendors as long as the Big Three (or Big Two?) remain in business.

[bob_amos]

My Gawd, I hope it doesn't happen!!!! I spent over 20 years working for Chrysler and would hate seeing it and GM as one. I also worked for GM as a 'Vette specialist for 3 years but hated working for GM. But.... isn't it intetesting how GM might be thinking that Chrysler is its only hope for survival???

[greg g]

NPR reported that the collaberation was for a joint development project on a new series of SUV's. Now if you look at Chryslers current problem, 100K SUV and trucks sitting in storage lots, a 200 day supply of inventory, and with GM SUV selling slowly also, this makes perfect sense and is reflective of why the Little 3 are in trouble. What is Ford pushing, a new Crossover the EDGE, a mini gas guzzler. So lets face it, they have sold all the SUV they can to the 30 something's, soccer moms and UMP's (umwardly mobile posers) and are now sitting on 350 thousand vehicles that have fallen out of fashion. The lower end of the scale represented by Caliber, Focus, Cobalt, do not compare well to the FIT, Civic, Corrola, or even the Kia, and Hyundias in that segment. And throw in that the Caliber and Jeep platforms are powered by an engine shared by Hyundai and Kia, and the comparison is further muddied.

And not to take anything away from their retired workers, but a big share of the cost of a new Domestic auto is in paying those folks retirement checks. It certainly is no longer is in engineering and product development. I drive new Dodge Velicles everyday at the dealership I work at. There is not one save a full size Pickup that you could give me, and I don't need a truck. If I needed a truck, I don't know what I would buy, but I would seriously look at the Titan and Tundra.

[Plymouthy Adams]

whatever...they could not do worse than the Germans did...never have I seen such mass mismanagement in mylife.

[Norm's Coupe]

Not sure where it will all end up. I've owned a couple Fords, a lot of Chevy's, a couple Pontiacs, a couple Buicks, a lot of Mopar's and one foreign car in disguise....a LUV 4x4 pickup. I think the issue of "quality" is more bogus than true these days. Driving a Chevy (or a Ford or a Mopar) just isn't "cool" enough anymore for reasons that will always escape me. I haven't had a difficult time with any of this array of American made vehicles at all. I even ran a Chevrolet Cavalier stationwagon 215,000 miles on the original clutch and engine. And the engine wasn't using a lot of oil when I had to dump a new clutch in her. Never had to pull the head or replace a water pump. I think an alternator and a starter were about it. I'm still all for buying from the true U.S. automakers rather than from any of the overseas vendors as long as the Big Three (or Big Two?) remain in business.

Johnny says it all in his post. GM engines are hard to beat. My son had an orginal V6 in his 80 Firebird. That engine had over 170,000 miles on it when he rebuilt it. The only reason he rebuilt it was to put in high performance cam etc., otherwise the engine was still running like new. We also had a salesman back in the 80's who owned and used his 84 Cavalier to call on customers. He put about 250,000 miles or so without ever having to go into the engine or transmission. About the only thing he had to do to that car was replace the thermostat. He then sold the car to his brother who at last count put another 100,000 miles on that car. That was a little 4 banger.

Even the largest of the GM V8's are hard to beat. Prior to my son buying his 80 Firebird back in the 80's, he had an Olds Vista Cruiser (his first car). He only paid $100 for that car because it was rusty and had over 100,000 miles on it when he bought it. He kept that car after buying the Firebird and used it to haul stuff around in it. He put about another 100,000 miles on it before getting rid of it. When he did get rid of it, it was because someone ran into it when he had it parked in front of his sisters house. The engine was still running like a top. My neighbor across the street has two Cadallic's. A 1979 2 door coupe and a 1998 4 door. Both have the large V8 in them. The 1979 has over 250,000 on it and the 1998 is pushing 300,000 miles. Both run like tops.

That shows how well GM engines hold up and I didn't even touch on the real GM work horse, the ever popular 350 V8. You can't argue with success like that for engines.

On the other side of the coin, I've owned a lot of Mopar's over the years. I also know a lot of family and friends who have owned them. Out of that, including myself, I have never seen one go 100,000 miles without an engine and transmission rebuild. You usually have to rebuild the Mopar's between 50,000 and 100,000 miles. Even had one that needed rebuilding someplace the the 40,000 to 50,000 mile range.

I was never for the Damiler merger. At least if GM buys Chrysler, it's still a US company and not foreign owned. Plus, maybe then the Mopar engine and transmissions will come up to par with the GM quality.

[Plymouthy Adams]

you're right Norm..we have had a 350 block at the end of the boat anchor chain for years...best anchor we have found to date..

for the record..I have yet to go less that 200,000 thousand on my mopars without engine or tranny failure and try to sell them at about 220,000 while there is still life in them...of course this has only been family wide since i1961..some 46 years of trouble free cars...I cannot beleieve for a minute based on my years as a paid mechanic that GM could ever hold a record like that..especially when a GM would smoke without 10,000 miles of ower ship from bad stem seals on the vals...that's right..they got that fixed now..using Mopar umbrellas...this could go on but boat anchors will always be the best application of a GM block in my book...

[Brad Lustig]

Prior to my son buying his 80 Firebird back in the 80's' date=' he had an Olds Vista Cruiser (his first car). [/quote']

You just made me shudder a little bit, Norm. Back in middle school, one of my best friend's dad had a Vista Cruiser. That was the smelliest car ever! He would cart us around town smoking cheap cigars with the windows rolled up. Bleck! Not only did you have the current cigar going, but you had all the old stale smoke that had built up over the years. I think when he went to sell it, he was able to get $500 and they scrapped the car and kept the engine.

[Norm's Coupe]

Tim,

I can go back a little further on Mopar's. My grandfather would only buy Mopar's and Studebaker's. The Studes were trucks for his electrical contracting business. The same went for my father until he went to work for Ford in the late 50's. I can remember in the 40's and 50's my father and grandfather always tearing down the engines in the Mopar to rebuild it. My first car was a 1952 Dodge. At about 80 or 90,000 it needed a rebuild. Since 1965 I've owned a 65 Dodge, 67 Chrysler, 78 Dodge Aspen, 80 Volare, two 83 Tourismo's, two 85 Tourismo's (one had a bad camshaft within 800 miles), 83 Horizon (it needed rebuilding with less than 50,000 miles), 87 Reliant (rebuilt at about 90,000 miles), 90 Dodge Caravan V6 (needed transmission at 72,000 and engine rebuild at about 100,000) and a 90 Sundance. In short, I had some type of engine problems with them all. Also a friend who kept his 90 Caravan for about 150,000 miles. He had to rebuild the engine and transmission twice during that time.

I will say I didn't have much problem with the Aspen through the Tourismo's. However, I got rid of them before 50,000 miles.

[Norm's Coupe]

An interesting side note I forgot about in the other post.

Prior to a few years ago my younger brother worked for a large regional Dodge dealership in the Louisville area. Because my mothers father was such a Mopar fan, of course my mother is too. After my father passed away back in 1980 she went back to buying only Dodge's. Ever since she's always complaining about I had to fix this or that on the car. Then ends up buying another new Dodge (because in her mind it's the best). She now has an 84 Dodge and still complaining. Say's she's going to buy another new car. Tried to tell her to switch to another make, BUT, Dodge is the best in her mind and she says it'll be another Dodge. She's stuck in her way's and you can't change that at her age.

Now, what kind of car do you suppose my younger brother has owned all those years he was selling new Dodge's? NOPE, not a Mopar. He always buys a Ford. Now what does that tell you??

[PatS....]

Where the hell is Iacocca? They need a car guy instaed of bean counters. Separate all the divisions again and let them duke it out maybe.

[Paul Hoffmeyer]

Norm, your experience with Mopars certainly doesn't match mine or most of the people that I know with Mopars. My wife's car is a '90 New Yorker with a 3.3 V6 with 158,000 miles and going strong. My '84 Dodge 4X4 3/4 ton has 190,000 and still runs well. I bought a '74 Club Cab new and put 131,000 on it and put the engine in an '84 1/2 ton that my son blew the motor in by inappropriate mixture of hot rod parts. We used to have an '80 LeBaron with a slant 6 and it had 190,000 when it left the family and we lost rack of it.

Oh, to keep this relavent to the site, I learned to drive in my folks' '46 Dodge that was approaching 250,000 when they traded it off.

No argument, just my experience.

Paul H

[Ed Griffin]

When I see conversations like this it always takes me back to when I was stationed in Okinawa, Japan in 76-77. While there I noticed how rare it was to see an American car and on the flip side it was pretty well the same state side as to seeing Japanese cars. Not as rare but still, the American car ruled the road then. I thought to myself how I hoped that we never would ever see these cars in the states as you saw them over there.

This was around the time we were feeling the pinch of gas prices rising. Also rising nation wide was the need of a better milage car and it just so happened Japan, along with others, had them. So in effect, this is how we ended up with the situation were in now. Not to mention the cheaper prices these "tin cans" could be bought for.

All in all it wasnt a matter of how well the American cars ran compared to the foriegn cars. It was the fact that the people were looking for something they could drive new and also put food on the table at the same time.

With the market being flooded with cheaper, more economical foreign cars what choices did the American makers have? What choices did the American people give them buy buying these cars, none. So what could they do? All they could do was try to compete or as the old saying goes" if you cant beat them, join them" and thats basically whats happened. With that in mind those that complain that were losing our American auto makers need to look back and remember why you saw those stickers on cars that said "Buy American" and relize there was good reason for it. Now days those stickers have little meaning. Why? Because there is no such thing anymore. If your still wondering how this could have happened, take a long hard look in the mirror, this is where the blame should be directed.

[Guest jtw3749c]

I can't wait to see how many will run right out and buy one of those Communist Chinese pieces of crap cars. I mean, why not, we run to Wal-Mart and buy all that Communist crap, don't we? We need to keep doing this, so we don't have to be worried about what language we speak, because it will be Chinese. ahh--so, hiht!

[Young Ed]

Norm you kinda lost track of the topic. Yes I agree the GM v8s you mentioned are all very good. So are the mopar ones. All the mopar cars you had trouble with were 4 or 6 cyls. And GM certainly has their share of issues with those. My sisters new to her 98 century with the 3.1 V6 has already had 2K in repairs for a bad intake gasket and front cover gasket. One other interesting fact here. For as die hard mopar collectors as Dad and I are I'm the only one in the family still driving a modern Mopar. They all have various GMs currently and are shopping for a toyota or honda at the moment.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Ed that is true, they all have their amount of problems again to add the fact that Norm speaks of relatives of old were rebuilding say 50 to 70 K area..hell they all did, part of the game with them all as material and work enviroment such as they were, dirt roads being very rough on engines....some of the old Chevies are still around because with the babbit poured rods they were parked on engine filure due to cost of repair...later taken out of the barn and given an engine that after 25 years of behind the tech curve finially got built by GM and was resurrrected. So you get unused bodies so to speak. Their latest head design they marvel over on perfornace is the exact same head that MoPar introduced with the poly engine in 1956...I have rebuilt a number of GM blocks..as I have with Ford and Mopar...my preference for them all is Mopar as they last the longest with longer MTBF than the othere with GM being at the cottom of the three. I no longer work in the auto industry as a repairman..thank goodness. It is a business of feast to famine..car repairs often get set aside for issures like back to school expenses, Christmas etc..

[PatS....]

So, why is it that the Japanese automakers can come to North America and put out a (perceived) better quality product?

Is it better initial design? Is it better robots on the line? Is it better trained happier employees?

OR, is there no real difference in quality, with domestic makers still suffering from poor quality vehicles of 20+ years ago?

The domestics use the excuse that they are stuck with SUV's that aren't selling, but around here anyway, they still seem like they are everywhere and they seem to hold their value.

My personal feeling is that it is status rather than anything real and tangible that the domestic makers can reverse. It is just not "fashionable" to own domestic with alot of people.

How does a Ford or Chrysler or GM change that idea?

It seemed to me that the 300 is/was very popular but Chrysler is still bleeding red ink. Are they on the right track, or was it a fluke?

Seems like there is no easy answer other than car buyers being sure that imports are ACTUALLY better quality rather than only perceived to be better.

As for GM buying Chrysler, I can't see the advantage for anyone involved except Diamler being rid of Chrysler. And that might be all it requires for the deal to go through.

One thing for sure...things would really get interesting. Wanna buy a Cadillac 300D?

[Norm's Coupe]

Back to the original subject of putting a SBC in a Mopar. I have mine sitting in the wait, along with the turbo 350 tranny!

[Guest Gerhard Tieseler]

I work at a Chrysler dealer and have been doing so for 6 years now. For sake of reference, I'm 28 yrs old.

I've seen first hand all the changes, modernizations, and cost cutting measures that Chrysler has been using. They have a huge fit about their warranty. I was more or less told that a car covered by warranty, with silver diff oil and a hum, is not to be repaired or considered even as a problem unless the custom raises a concern. I was told this because our dealer has overhauled too many rear ends under warranty.

In my opinion Chrysler has been very brave about marketing since the BR trucks and the Viper came out. Remember the Neon commercials? The little car says "Hi"? Time went on and the SUV became the big trendy thing, and big trucks even more trendy (which I have a distaste for those tastes as it is, but that is a rant I don't want to get into)

Who told Americans that the big SUV is the cool thing to own?

I worked on a brand new Jeep Wrangler. It has water leaks at the seams of the "Freedom Panels" It's like T-tops on a Jeep.

Chrysler has the balls to promote and sell this product with "Freedom Panels", and slap a warranty on it. It's not really a Wrangler anymore. It's more like a gimmicky street bound VW Thing with "Freedom Panels" and a V6 labeled as a rugged Jeep. They also sell the Compass.

Remember the shark Corvettes from the 70's? I know of 3 of them in the neighborhood covered with plastic.

Gas hit $3 a gallon down the street from the dealership two weeks before we received 3 new Megacabs. (The cab and front fenders are exactly twice the length of the bed)

In all of my criticism, the best thing Chrysler has going right now is the LX body (Chargers, 300Cs). The minivan has lost momentum because people tell me you can achieve the same purpose and look better in an SUV.

It seems as though the gimmicks and marketing of the 50's is back, without the style or passion, to sell to a generation who wants to be sold, or perhaps doesn't really know what it wants in the first place.

I'm sorry for carrying on so long.

One last note: Last week a woman brought here brand new Durango 5.7 Hemi in to be checked for poor fuel economy.

Consumers really don't know what they want.

[James_Douglas]

I grew up in my mothers 1949 DeSoto Convertible. It was solid as a rock and ran forever. I also grew up in my Dad's 1964 Chrysler 300K. It was used hard until about 1973. My mom needed a car in 1973, a couple of years after my father died and as she did not have a lot of money the local Chrysler dealer sold her a 1971 Plymouth 4-door satellite with a 318 and very low miles.

That Plymouth was a pile of @hit. Nothing but trouble. By 1975, as I was 15 then and handy with tools, I pulled the Chrysler 300K out of the barn and after dealing with the wiring (rats) that car ran fine. I tore it down to rebuild it in the late 1980's when it had 500,000 miles on it!

How did they go from building cars like the 300K to the Plymouth in six years. If they don't get their act together, they deserve to die off as a company.

I am waiting to see if the new Hardtop Challenger is going to look good and be good. I may break down and buy a new car for the first time in my life. That is if Chrysler is smart enough to build a bunch of them and take a small profit on each.

They are stupid however, and will make a few with big markups and have no impact on their market share.

James

[PatS....]

James, I had a 72 Satellite 4 door ex cop car as a taxi, bought in 1976 from the city police auction. 318, ps pb...nothing else. Linoleum upholstery and rubber mat. It had 200,000 on it when I bought it and I put another 400,000 on it.

Not one bit of trouble other than normal maintenance.

I replaced it with a 74 Torino with a 351, also an ex cop car. That car went 500,000 with only a bad transmission at 300,000.

Never had a GM taxi of that era last over 200,000 without nickel and diming me to death.

The only thing about the Satellite was that it rode like a buckboard with no suspension.

These companies are quite capable of building solid reliable vehicles when they want to. I think they still are suffering from past problems.