Time to Address an Old Screw Up

[Joe Flanagan]

Back when I was putting my engine together (7 years ago!) I installed the crankshaft and then put the oil pan on and forgot to insert the bolts in the crankshaft flange where the flywheel bolts on. It looks like there's no way they'll go on after the fact. Looks like I'll have to pull the oil pan and the cap for the rear main journal. Don't suppose there's any super clever way around this that I haven't thought of?

[randroid]

Joe,

After I installed my rebuilt 218 in my '48 P-15 my oil pump was sucking a little air and I couldn't get decent pressure, so I pulled the pan. The pan came free without disconnecting anything else, although I did need to wiggle it a bit. So far as the bearing cap is concerned, I didn't need to pull mine but it seems as though it would be rather straightforward.

-Randy

[Harvey Tank]

Joe don't feel like the loanranger. did the same thing only I saw what I did before I installed the pan.

[Jim Saraceno]

My old engine had the flywheel bolts pressed in from the front and had a flat that would sit next to a ridge on the crank that would keep the bolts from turning.

My new engine had no such ridge to keep the bolts from turning and the new bolts I bought had a standard hex head. I did install them before I put the crank in (as like you I saw no other way to do it) but I really can't see why it would make a difference.

It sounds like a lot of work for little results. Is there a reason your want to do that much work or are you just anal about having things a certain way? (BTW... I completely understand it if it's the later because I've done many things I didn't have to just to make me feel better:eek:!)

[JIPJOBXX]

I think you might haft to roll the engine over to get those bolts in. I kind of remember this as I had to put in a second fluid drive unit and it was not and easy chore but it can be done. You will haft to put bolts in one at a time and turn the engine over by hand to get the next bolt in. Mine were all fitted bolts but I got them in after alot of knuckle busting and tighten up correctly.

[Rodney Bullock]

JOE, after all that work you've done this is childs play, drop the pan put the bolts in...done;)

[Niel Hoback]

Since no one else mentioned, I must. When I first read title of this thread, I thought someone was trying to contact me. But who? So many people have called "old screw up" that I couldn't guess.

[Joe Flanagan]

OK Rodney, you're on. I believe my gasket will have to be replaced, correct? In that case, I'll have to wait for it to arrive and then I'll let you know when I'm going to drop the pan. Might install the engine the same day while I have you here.

Jim: I'd gladly install any old bolts if it meant not having to pull the oil pan off. The problem is, there's not enough room to slide a bolt through the holes in the flange. The main bearing cap is in the way. A stud with nuts on either side?

[Joe Flanagan]

I got them in after alot of knuckle busting and tighten up correctly.

"Knuckle-busting" is my middle name. Just ask Rodney. Problem is it's usually not only my knuckles that wind up busted.

Very funny Niel. I'll tell that one to my wife this evening. That will crack her up.

[Young Ed]

Joe that gasket is cheap from napa. After my rebuilt engine came back with all the gunk cleaned out of the pan it has a leak in the bottom. I suspect all the gunk held moisture and rusted it from the inside out while also keeping the leak sealed until it was cleaned out. Either way I had to change my pan.

[Jim Yergin]

OK Rodney, you're on. I believe my gasket will have to be replaced, correct? In that case, I'll have to wait for it to arrive and then I'll let you know when I'm going to drop the pan. Might install the engine the same day while I have you here.

Joe,

Remember you are welcome to borrow my hydraulic engine hoist. I finished installing the replacement engine in my PT Cruiser so it is available whenever you need it.

Jim Yergin

[Jim Saraceno]

The problem is, there's not enough room to slide a bolt through the holes in the flange. The main bearing cap is in the way. A stud with nuts on either side?

I understand the problem, I'm sure you are absolutely correct that you can't get the bolts in with the cap on. I was thinking that you had your engine in the car and you had just put the bolts in on the flywheel side with the nuts on the engine side. (I don't know why that wouldn't work.) As you can see, that is what the PO did to the engine I rebuilt...

When I rebuilt it, I used new bolts but as you can see, they have the standard hex head. If I remember right, I had to special order them (Vintage Power Wagons??) because they are an odd length, but I would think they would work the same nuts in or nuts out.

I pictured you pulling the pan and cap while the engine was still in the car.

However, it sounds like your engine may still be out of the car sitting on a stand or something. If that is the case, it doesn't' seem like it is that much work (though I still don't know if it is necessary).

[Joe Flanagan]

I see, said the blind man. No, my engine is out of the car but I would love to avoid pulling the pan off, mainly because I used Permatex in addition to the cork gasket. It never dawned on me to put the bolts in from the flywheel side. I can't think of any reason it wouldn't work either, unless the nuts backed off over time but I suppose you could use lock washers. I have those bolts you mentioned, the ones with one flat side on the head that buts up against a raised portion of the flange and keeps the bolt from turning. I figured I HAD to use those bolts but I guess I don't. Why couldn't I use those bolts and just slip them in from the flywheel side?

[Joe Flanagan]

Jim,

In that first picture you posted, are the heads of the bolts tack welded to the flywheel? At least one looks like it is. Can't tell about the others.

[Jim Saraceno]

are the heads of the bolts tack welded to the flywheel?

Nope. One thing though, on my old engine, the crank had the flange that would keep the heads from turning, on the new one , there was no flange there. You can see that on the second photo.

So, that might be the fly in the ointment. Will the nuts sit flush if your crank has that flange? If not would it be alright to shave off the nut so it would fit flat (and not turn)??? I would think it would depend on how much you had to shave.

If you use the original type bolts, it would probably be necessary to have enough clearance on the nut to tighten them. I wouldn't think you could use a wrench or socket on the head of those bolts.

If you used a standard hex head bolt like my new ones, you could tighten the bolt while the nut stands still.

[Normspeed]

If the motor is out and on a stand, seems like a pretty easy job to rotate it upside down, remove the pan and bearing cap and put in your bolts. Especially with Rodney volunteering to help with the thrash.

But, I can't see why the reverse-bolts would not work. If you go that way, get some nice grade 8 stuff and you could also use some red loctite instead of lock washers.

[Joe Flanagan]

I don't wanna pull the pan, fellas. I like the nuts, bolts, and locktite idea. If I pull the pan I'm going to have to clean up all that Permatex off the block and the pan itself. Could be Jim's right though, and a nut won't fit due to the raised portion on the crank flange. Will check tomorrow.

[Normspeed]

Joe, if you used Permatex #2, it will come off pretty easy with a single edge razor, especially if you warm it up with a hair dryer first. #1 is a real pain to get off, it hardens up pretty solid. The reverse bolts sound good but even if you have to drop the pan, heck, it's about the journey, not the destination, right?

The zen master has spoken.

[Joe Flanagan]

True, Baghwan, but this journey has had many side roads that I have not gone down. This might be one.

[Young Ed]

I say do it right now while its easier. When you can turn that motor upside down on a stand even scrapping wont be that bad. It'll be a lot worse if you have to do it in the car

[Don Coatney]

Joe;

When I first assembled my engine I also installed the flywheel bolts with the

nuts towards the flywheel. I then found this would not work. I dont recall

the reason but it might have been a clearance issue with the clutch disc. I

bought special bolts with a long shoulder that extends through the crank

flange and the flywheel. I had to shorten the bolts a bit and did so with a

hacksaw. I have a lot of these bolts, nuts, and locks left over so if you need

any let me know.

Remember I used a Desoto engine with 8 crankshaft flange holes and a

Plymouth flywheel with 4 holes. The bolt hole pattern was such that the

flywheel will only bolt on one way. It took a bit to find the right combination.

I believe you will find this on your Plymouth to Plymouth install too. Once I

found the right combination I marked it with a center punch.

When I installed my oil pan I used gasket cement on one side only and used

grease on the other side. I have removed my oil pan several times and

re-used the gasket with no issues.

Wrong way

Right way

Grade 8 shoulder bolts

[Joe Flanagan]

Don,

Thanks a lot for the information and photos. I'll have to tinker with this and see what will work. Right now I'm planning on installing the bolts the way you have them: Through the flywheel and into the crank flange with the nuts on the flange side. If clearance is OK, I'm going with that. I should be able to find the bolts locally but if I run into trouble I'll let you know. Thanks for the offer.

[Rodney Bullock]

Joe, I must tell you something, I know you are going to do it your way....but The engineers at Plymouth made that set to be the safest and easiest for that car. Don has a custom situation there however you have a original set up. Deviating away from that while in the beginning may work for a while it will eventually cause a problem. It is so easy to just "do it Right the first time" the motor is on your stand. I will be going to Ohio weds and thursday and will be back friday I will help you. You don't want this in theback of your mind while you are trying to enjoy your car. Once you put your car all together it's going to be tragic having to go back in again. Pulling that pan is nothing, the rope seal is on top. Even if you have to replace it the motor is upside down, plus you can look and see if you missed anything else before you button everything back up.

[T120]

Don,I'm impressed with the photo records you've kept.

[55 Fargo]

I also installed my flywheel to crank bolts as per Don Coatney, I did this when I pulled the clutch housing/flywheel to correct a leaking rear freeze plug.

I have had no issues, these bolts were previously installed this way on my 8 bolt crank flange /flyhweel engine.....Fred