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still soft....


p24-1953

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  • 4 weeks later...

had another bleeding session yesterday.

i found a leak on the passenger side, brake fluid came oozing out between the hose and brake line fitting on the frame. i fixed that by opening and retightening a few times to make the seat settle down.

but still - there must be air in the lines because i have to pump the pedal 2 or three times untill i have a normal response.

in the back everything seems ok to me, but on the front there are thousands of microscopic bubbles in the brake fluid when it comes rushing through the bleeder hose.

how can i find the leak if i do not see any fluid leaving the system?

will i ever get this ride on the road?:(

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I still have the wonderful experience of putting the brakes back together ahead of me. How can a modern brake shop adjust our brakes without the special tool?

The same way I do, touch and feel. Actually, the guy who helped with the rebuild on my engine owns his own auto service shop. He's been at the same shop since the 60's. He bought the shop when the owner retired back in the 90's. He's also a member of the Ford V8 Club, and works on a lot of old cars of all makes. Once several years back, when we were at a swap meet looking around, I was looking for the Ammco 1750 tool cheap. Not to use, but to put on ebay for a nice profit.:D He ask why I wanted that. Told him. Then he said he had two of them someplace in the basement of the shop. Said they were only used a couple of times because it was easier and quicker to adjust the brakes without the tool. He was going to look for them when I told him what they were going for on ebay. But.........that's like a needle in a haystack in the basement of that shop. All kinds of stuff down there. So.......he still hasn't run across them.

For what it's worth, another old time shop near me also uses the touch and feel method too. He has two 63 Ramblers sitting on his lot that run and stop. He also has a 53 Chevy Pickup he's restoring. You don't need that tool. Pick up an old Clymer book and it explains how to do it without the tool.

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The same way I do' date=' touch and feel. Actually, the guy who helped with the rebuild on my engine owns his own auto service shop. He's been at the same shop since the 60's. He bought the shop when the owner retired back in the 90's. He's also a member of the Ford V8 Club, and works on a lot of old cars of all makes. Once several years back, when we were at a swap meet looking around, I was looking for the Ammco 1750 tool cheap. Not to use, but to put on ebay for a nice profit.:D He ask why I wanted that. Told him. Then he said he had two of them someplace in the basement of the shop. Said they were only used a couple of times because it was easier and quicker to adjust the brakes without the tool. He was going to look for them when I told him what they were going for on ebay. But.........that's like a needle in a haystack in the basement of that shop. All kinds of stuff down there. So.......he still hasn't run across them.

For what it's worth, another old time shop near me also uses the touch and feel method too. He has two 63 Ramblers sitting on his lot that run and stop. He also has a 53 Chevy Pickup he's restoring. You don't need that tool. Pick up an old Clymer book and it explains how to do it without the tool.[/quote']

I also use the adjust and go and have for many years-works just fine for me. I have all the special tools for these brakes but it takes too long to get er done with em. I have used all of them and do know how to use them all very well but I like the good old fashioned way most shops did them back in the day. They (the car doctor) would tell you to bring the car back for a couple brake adjustment follow ups just like with a real human doctor!

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Guest P15-D24

Good to hear it was the solution.

Exactly what you told me year before last about the pedal. Had a leaky cylinder. Air getting in. Not enough to see the leak. Fixed that. Bled all around 2 more times and have been fine since:)

It is really easy to bleed out and finish. Usually no more than two trips around with a pressure bleeder. If they are not good after two trips, you have a leak.

You need to check every fitting, including any rusty lines. In have found hairline cracks in them that would just ooze a drop or two after 5 minutes.

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Guest P15-D24
I still have the wonderful experience of putting the brakes back together ahead of me. How can a modern brake shop adjust our brakes without the special tool?

Most "modern" shops are not familiar with the concept of having to center the shoes since self centering shoes have been the norm for at least 40 years. Do the shoe centering and the brakes will work great with a high pedal and straight stopping. Over the years I tried the non gauge method and I can assure you will end up with about 50% of your braking capability. The difference is night and day. This is where the reputation for crappy mopar brakes originates, incorrectly adjusted brake shoes.

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Most "modern" shops are not familiar with the concept of having to center the shoes since self centering shoes have been the norm for at least 40 years. Do the shoe centering and the brakes will work great with a high pedal and straight stopping. Over the years I tried the non gauge method and I can assure you will end up with about 50% of your braking capability. The difference is night and day. This is where the reputation for crappy mopar brakes originates, incorrectly adjusted brake shoes.

Well I guess if you don't use the "Tool" you can never have good brakes on your old DPCD car- sad.....

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Well I guess if you don't use the "Tool" you can never have good brakes on your old DPCD car- sad.....

Forget it. I've been round and round on this subject on the forum before. It's come up many times in the past. There are those who are believer's like you and I, and those who are not. And, you won't change the non believer's.;)

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tool this, tool that:rolleyes:

i did the touchy-feely thingy and i saw my whole drum and wheel setup move around when someone steps on the brakes, so i guess i still didn't center correctly (i still don't understand completely how that stuff works, though i have read the shop manual over and over and everything looks very simple, but still...)

when the shoes hit the drum and are not centered, i seems to me that could result in ugly steering behaviour when riding higher speeds.

i will build a pressure bleeding system now.

i had the thread of the main cylinder closing measured and it's 1/2" whitstock thread. we were a little surprised because we thought it would be a standard american pipe thread, but anyway, i'll have an adapter built the next days and build a remote reservoir on the firewall. afterwards i'll put a simple valve from a tire in a second cover and put pressure on the system

(garden sprayer is a good idea, jim!)

afterwards, i'll build that adjusting tool. build this, build that:eek:

i'll keep you updated!

still frustrating, though.

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Most "modern" shops are not familiar with the concept of having to center the shoes since self centering shoes have been the norm for at least 40 years. Do the shoe centering and the brakes will work great with a high pedal and straight stopping. Over the years I tried the non gauge method and I can assure you will end up with about 50% of your braking capability. The difference is night and day. This is where the reputation for crappy mopar brakes originates, incorrectly adjusted brake shoes.

That's been my experience too GTK.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Here is what brake shoes look like when they are not adjusted correctly. I wish a couple of you touchy feely guys would do the following. With a sharpie marker make several hash marks across your brake shoes after you have them adjusted without the tool. Then go for a drive and make a few stops. Once home remove your drum and inspect the shoes. Post a picture of how the hash marks look both before and after.

shoe1.jpg

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If the shoe doesn't fit you must quit. The shoe radius must match the drum radius before any shoe installation and adjusting! The drums need to be miked and then the shoes arced on a brake shoe arching machine to each specific drum Diameter- and yes I realize it could be hard to find someone to do this now days but this is the best way to a proper hard pedal. If the radius of the standard size shoe lining is put to say a .040" oversize drum even with the 1750 Ammco tool you will still never get toe and heel specs correct because the center of the lining hits the drum 1st. They used to sell OS shoe sets for this specific issue.

You can still survive all this complicated brake mumbo jumbo if you cannot get the tools. Read all these P15/D24 posts on these lockheed brakes! Use all new parts-hoses too, bleed them with a pressure bleeder-with shoes retracted, thats the best way. You need to adjust up the brake shoes the best you feel you can-shoes should just rub a bit-look at the brake lining surface's (2) for each drum, see where the lining is showing rubbing- this after spinning the drums by hand-remove the drums to check linings. Now the best possible wear/rubbing area you want on new non-arched shoes is to have most of the contact area at the shoe end near the wheel cylinder and continuing on into the center area of each of the linings. Start with factory settings of the anchor arrows- they point to each other on car's rear brakes. On the front brakes arrows point to each wheel cylinder. Start this adjusting with the 3/4" adjuster bolt at the center of each backing plate. Turn each brake adjustment cam till drum won't turn, then back off each shoe cam adjuster till the drum just turns with a slight drag. Pull the drum off and look at the shoes and see which area of the shoe is rubbing. Try to get the most rubbing contact area from the wheel cyl end of shoe into the center area of the shoe. This is when you get to play with the anchor pins too- Oh boy. If the arc of the shoes doesn't come close to the dia. of the drum you will spend all day trying to adjust the shoes! Thats why from the factory when new the anchor arrows are always set as I stated above and the shoes were arched-fitted to the factory OE diameter of the drums. When the drums are over size/ and not OE thickness linings ect. anchor pins will sometimes need to be turned. BUT....if this seems too complicated......

Just leave the anchors at stock settings-install shoes and adjust the brake cam adjusters-3/4" bolts, and drive the car around (if a soft pedal ) keep your distance and keep wearing in the shoes. After the 1st drive they might fade- let them cool. Adjust them up, again drive it a couple hundred more miles ,adjust them up again and they-WILL start to come up and be firm great brakes!-Assuming all the parts are installed properly and are proper rebuilt or new.

I'm done!

Bob

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Well here is my two cents worth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Make or rent a brake bleeding pressurized pump. I had this problem with my brakes till I finally made up the famous garden sprayer converted to brake fluid pump. I built one of these and it worked so good that friends of mine come over just to borrow the rig. You haft to have all the air out of your system if you don't than your the proverbial monkey screwing the football. Jon

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