New 218 popping & backfiring, won't start

[fadingfastsd]

Ok guys I've got a question.

I've got the new engine in the car, and I'm trying to get it started back up.

It's real close, but I'm getting all sorts of popping and backfiring and even some flame out of the headers.

I'm assuming I've got some sort of timing problem, so...

I checked the point gap, set it to TDC on cyl #6 by putting a wire down through the timing plug near #6 and rotating to its highest point (should be the same as 1 right?) The rotor on the diz was set to 7 o clock, plug wires in the right order.

Still just getting pops and backfires. One thing I noticed is the bolt that clamps the diz mounting arm down is tight, but the distributor will rotate freely through its full clockwise/counterclockwise rotation. Is there another sort of clamp or set screw that holds it in place?

I also saw by reading other threads that the distributor can be mounted 180deg off. I don't believe this is the case since the rotor was at about 7 o clock when the timing plug showed the wire at its highest point. Can you tell the distributor is installed correctly b/c the vacuum pot on the diz is on the top side rather than the bottom?

Can the diz being so loose be causing problems?

Any help is much appreciated!

Evan

[48mirage]

The distributor can still be 180 degrees out. The crank rotates 2 complete revolutions to 1 revolution for the distributor.

[Lou Earle]

1- check your plug wires be sure they are in proper order- sure sounds like firing order is out -if not then-

2- remove cap on distributor and note position of rotor-then remove set screw on dist. attaching it to the engine. Pull it out slightly. then rotate the shaft and rotor 1/2 turn so rotor is pointing exactly opposite direction. re install set screw. then try

Lou

[Merle Coggins]

I agree with the others that you're probably 180 degrees off. You say that you have #1 & #6 at TDC, but which one is on the power stroke? I suspect that you have #6 on the power stroke with the rotor pointing at #1 plug wire. Turn the dizzy 180 and try again.

Also, mine had another adjustment clamp up under the body of the distributor. Feel around the bottom side and see if you feel a bolt head. If so put a wrench on it and tighten it up. I don't know why there are two adjustments, but they are there.

[Don Coatney]

I also agree that you are 180 degrees out. Merle mentioned that there is a

second adjustment slot on the bottom of your distributor. This slot cannot

be seen from the topside. Here is a picture.

[greg g]

to assure your are static timing to TDC of cylinder #1, pull the plug, and place your thumb on the hole. While cranking the engine you can feel the pressure build against your thumb. when you begin to feel the pressure, then turn the engine over by hand to align the timing marks. then put the dist in to allign with number 1. Then assure the wire are indexed correctly. I had everything right, but had the wires one tower off on the dist. Also make sure your coil wire is fully seated in the dist cap.

[fadingfastsd]

Thanks for the tips guys!

I'll try rotating the distributor 180deg when I get home tonight.

I guess I'm not totally clear on this though...I thought when the #6 cyl is at TDC as indicated by using a piece of coathanger wire through the timing plug by the #6 cyl, the #1 cyl should be at same place? Are you saying #1 will be at TDC, but on the power stroke, not compression? So in that case, how much more do I rotate the engine to get #1 to the correct location?

Or once I get #6 to TDC by using the coathanger, should I just rotate the distributor 180deg...which would put the rotor at about 1o clock, which I thought was 180deg off from being correct?

[Don Coatney]

For every full revoloution (360 degree) of the crank shaft the cam shaft spins 180 degrees. The distributor is driven my the oil pump that is driven by the cam shaft so the distributor also does a half reveloution for every full crankshaft revoloution.

[Young Ed]

Also keep this in mind too. While the dist only goes into the oil pump 2 ways the oil pump is driven off a gear on the cam and can be installed differently. So the correct rotor position for you may vary if your cam and oil pump gear are oriented differently.

[blueskies]

Also keep this in mind too. While the dist only goes into the oil pump 2 ways the oil pump is driven off a gear on the cam and can be installed differently. So the correct rotor position for you may vary if your cam and oil pump gear are oriented differently.

Exactly- If the oil pump has been installed correctly, the #1 plug wire is at the 7oclock position on the cap. If it has been installed incorrectly, the #1 postion could be anywhere.

Best is to get the #1 piston at TDC on the compression stroke, and see where the rotor is pointed inside the cap. Put the #1 wire there, then 153624.

Pete

[Merle Coggins]

You are correct in that both #1 and #6 pistons travel up and down together. But just because they are at the top doesn't mean that they are ready for spark. Lets go back to engine basics. The four strokes of a 4 cycle engine are as follows;

Down = Intake stroke (suck)

Up = Compression stroke (squeeze)

Down = Power Stroke (bang)

Up = Exhaust stroke (blow)

As you see, to get the 4 strokes of a typical 4 cycle engine the crank will rotate twice, or 720 degrees, but the cam, and distributor, will only rotate once, or 360 degrees. And even though the two pistons travel up and down together they are actually 360 degrees apart according to the 4 cycle process. In other words, when #1 in on it's compression stroke #6 in on it's exhaust stroke and vice-verse. If your distributor is 180 off it will be sparking the plug on the exhaust stroke instead of on the compression stroke. (I said Power stroke in my earlier post, but actually the spark causes the power stroke.) If the spark occures on the exhaust stroke it can only ignite the gas as it's leaving the cylinder into the exhaust system. Hence the backfires and flames out the pipe.

Merle

[hkestes41]

If you have it 180 out, you can take the #1 wire off the dist cap and put it where you currently have #6. Then finish your firing order around the cap 5 - 3 - 6 - 4 - 2.

[steveplym]

I had the same problem with my car when I first fired up the new motor this year. Found out the bottom adjustment on the distributor was off a bit. Then I static timed it using the method on the main page. If you have your timing mark at zero you should have #1 at tdc. That should help you figure out the 180 degrees out.

Here is the static timing trick.

Static Ignition Timing

The classic Catch-22. Your trying to get your flathead started. The engine is not running so you can't check the timing with a timing light. However you suspect the reason the engine won’t start is because the timing is set incorrectly. The solution is easy, static time the ignition.

You need a cheap neon indicator, the kind you use to check your household wall outlet. First turn the engine over by hand until the timing marks line up at top dead center (TDC). Pull the distributor cap and verify the rotor is pointing at the cylinder #1 plug tower on the distributor cap. Usually the rotor is pointing around 7:00 o’clock. If not, it means cylinder #6 is in firing position and you need to turn the engine one full revolution. One way to be sure of the firing position is to pull the front valve cover off and watch the lifters. If cylinder #1 is TDC, both valves will be closed. As you continue to turn the engine manually, the exhaust valve will open. Once TDC is set, pull the plug wire off plug #1 and hook up one lead of the neon tester to the plug connector. Connect the other neon lead to a solid ground, such as the coil bracket. I use short jumper wires with alligator clips to secure the connections.

Reinstall the distributor cap, and loosen the locking bolt on the distributor so it will rotate. Turn on the ignition. Rotate the distributor fully clockwise until you hit the stop. Then slow turn counter-clockwise until you see the neon tester flash. When the light flashes you are set for TDC. Tighten the distributor locking bolt. The advantage of starting with static timing is neither the vacuum or centrifugal advances are in use. By the way, this procedure is similar to one discussed in the Plymouth Service Manual in the Ignition System section. The service manual setup uses the ignition point circuit instead of the plug wires and a six volt bulb is used instead of a neon test light.

[fadingfastsd]

Ok guys got an update for you....you're probably going to kill me.

I pulled the wires and cap. Flipped the distributor and reinstalled. Set the engine to #1 TDC per the timing mark on the bottom pulley (I didn't notice the marks the other day! Quick question: If the pulley is set to the TDC mark on it, does that mean it is at #1 Cylinder TDC on compression stroke? Or could it also be on the power stroke...if so how do you tell?).

Rotor was pointing at 7o clock, reinstalled all wires in correct order and location. Static timed it with a small circuit checker light, and everything should be ready to go.

I guess I didn't mention it before, I'd been using some carb cleaner down the the throat of the carbs as starting fluid. I sprayed some more down there, and started cranking. Got a few pops and backfires, but no starting.

Now I was really pissed off...everything was timed correctly, and still nothing.

So I go check the simple things I should've checked in the first place.

I pull the fuel line at the carbs...bone dry.

Check the glass bowl on the fuel pump...nothing.

Pull the output line on the fuel pump, crank the engine, nothing.

I'm out of gas.

I go fill up the gas can, dump 5 gal in the car. By this time after all the cranking, my battery is about dead. I start cranking with whats left, and cant even get gas through the fuel pump with only the few revolutions it had left in it.

So now it looks like I may have never been getting gas, just popping off the carb cleaner I was using. But its also possible the fuel pump may not be working.

So couple final questions:

*Where in the hell do I get a 6v Battery charger or jump box?

*If my fuel pump was working correctly, should it have pulled enough gas through from the few short slow revolutions I was able to get before my battery died, or does it need continuous steady revolutions to pull enough to prime the carbs.

*Is there any other way to test the fuel pump?

Thanks for the help!

[Young Ed]

If the pump is empty it does take quite a few engine revolutions to get gas sucked back into it. I think the higher end battery chargers still have a switch for 6v and 12v. I've never seen a 6v jump box.

[steveplym]

I've jumped my battery with a 12V jump box. Just have to do it quick. Most tractor supply stores have a 6v battery charger.

[Merle Coggins]

Your TDC mark on the pulley indicates that #1 & #6 pistons are at the top of their strokes. So, as before, #1 could be either at the top of it's compression stroke or at the top of it's exhaust stroke. The easiest way to tell is to pull out #1 spark plug and stick your finger in the hole while you, or someone else rotates the engine. When the piston is coming up on the compression stroke you will feel pressure against your finger. It may even blow your finger off of the hole. NOW you are on the compression stroke. Continue to rotate the engine until your TDC mark is aligned and set up your distributor.

Merle

[Normspeed]

Harbor Freight has a 6v-12v charger for about $20.

[JerseyHarold]

Yank the spark plugs and then crank the engine. It'll spin faster and the fuel will pump up quicker.

[james curl]

You can hook your jumper cables to the starter and to gound on the starter housing. Then hook up either of the other leads to the postive post on the battery and turn your key on then touch the free end to the open terminal and the starter will run on 12 volts. When the engine starts or the fuel is to the carbs remove of the lead from the battery opening the circuit. If you do it this way it isolates the 12 volts to the starter. You could hook the hot lead to the output side of the solnoid instead of the starter, just do not press the starter button when the 12 volts are being applied to the starter.

[daddyo23]

Wally World has Schumacher chargers that are 6+12 volt for around twenty bucks. When I've run the carb dry or it's sat for awhile, I just pour a little gas down the throat and it'll fire and pull the gas up. Wayne P,

[Mr. Belvedere]

If you don't want to buy a charger take it to a parts house that sells batteries and tell em you gotta dead 6v battery they can generally charge it for you for free. While there buy some starting fluid for about .99cents works alot better than carb cleaner.

[fadingfastsd]

Ok got an update for you guys.

I've been charging the battery with my 12v charger. Seems to work fine, and hasn't damaged the battery.

The fuel problem seemed to be a clogged pickup at the gas tank.

I blew air from my compressor back through the line at the pump, and it started flowing just fine. I had to suck the other end of the line after the pump to fill up the glass bowl, then everything started flowing fine.

I had also static time the engine to the exhaust stroke of #1, so I actually need to rotate the distributor 180deg again. For now, I just reordered the plugs.

I now have engine coughing and sputtering...very close to starting.

I'm wondering if running this setup with open headers and no air filters will affect the starting? Will that let too much air in & run lean w/ no filters, and will open headers affect the engine running with no back pressure?

Just wondering...

Also I noticed after trying to start for awhile, the starter was pretty warm. When the engine would catch and almost start, the starter sound like it was slipping or just spinning without turning the engine. How can that happen?

I'll keep you guys posted, shes almost there.

[greg g]

recheck your firing order. I had mine one tower off, and it would cough and sturrer but not start. redid the wires on the dizzy, and it started right up. open headers and no air cleaners will be negligable for non load running.

[martybose]

recheck your firing order. I had mine one tower off, and it would cough and sturrer but not start. redid the wires on the dizzy, and it started right up. open headers and no air cleaners will be negligable for non load running.

I agree with Greg. When I installed my HEI I had to move the plug wires once to get it started, then a second time to get enough adjustment range.

That said, I'd just leave the screw out if the adjuster slot and turn it a bunch and try it, if nothing turn it a bunch the other way and try again. The engine should start even with the timing way off, then put a timing light on it.

Marty