timkingsbury

thanks for your feedback once again, and Ill take it off line at this point Frank.

Well then, all of a sudden, his price seems very comparable to my rough guess-timate. If you do buy the setup would love to see a picture from the other side showing the exhaust.

Thanks for your feedback Frank but since we don't sell air cleaners, heads, I didn't mention an intake we are making, and only used a reference of split exhaust as a reference point for price, I am not sure I follow your point on an infomercial for our products. I could have just said, I think he is asking to much and left it at that, but I thought perhaps it was worthy of breaking down the components as part of the explanation.

Ill send you a note. Since we have only seen 1 of them and was lead to believe it was early in the production run, I would prefer not to use a name and cause a negative spin. I will say there seemed to be less water jackets in the head, and very quickly you could use a heat sensor gun and see significant heat differences across the head and across the cylinders in terms of temperature. I have put the gun to several Edmunds heads, for both small and large block flatheads as well as 2 small block tattersfield and did not see this issue. So if I was buying anything other than those two or something made by Chrysler corp, I would want to do a simple heat test on one. If there was significant changes in heat across the head, and cylinders (especially #1 vs others), then I would pass on the head. While the heat guns used to be very expensive, they are now fairly inexpensive and good for a lot more than just checking heads.

I agree with Rich below in terms of conditions of the head. Now my two cents assuming everything is good.. easy one first.. The air cleaners are off chev pickup trucks. You can get actual air cleaners for them we have some in stock and I love the air cleaners. cleaned up and painted they go from $75-$150 each.. so I would call those $150. The carbs, are just carbs to rebuild for me, and what is that worth.. I will let others call that but my range $20-$40 for the pair. The intake, has the definite cool factor. They do get more rev but loose torque, so in terms of performance there are better, such as a Edmunds. That intake is the absolute last of the tattersfield, because unlike the one on ebay, you will notice it has the linkage tabs built in. That helps in terms of linkage but its setup for something that has linkage on the head side. The intake and linkage which look good there are in my mind $350-500 in value. The exhaust, Id like to see the other side on what you have. They may have made dual exhaust but in tattersfield, I have never seen on. On the head.. I have seen them, I have had one on the car. Assuming its in good condition, they are great heads.. I can look up more info on the cc of the head, because I do know guys shaved them to push up the compression. In terms of value, they are equal to an Edmunds in my mind,and does not have the over heating issue as at least one other aluminum head I have seen. Retail I have seen those heads within the last 24 months going in the $300-$700 range. So the exhaust aside and you can my dual exhaust made from stock intake in integrated or headers from George Asche for $175 or reproduction headers which are as good as originals from Tom Langdon for $340 Without seeing what you have there, I would go in that range.. $175 - $350. When I add it all up, I don't blame the guy for asking for $2000 for it all, but I think he has quite a premium on that grouping.. I see $1015 - $1750 absolutely top end. If I was speculating unless the guy has that head magnifluxed for cracks and there would still have to be no repairs, threads all good, head not warped.. I would be offering $1250 if I really wanted it and $1500 would be top of the mark if I wanted it for me vehicle and $1500 would be as much for the cool factor of an all tattersfield package. Tim

Well Don as usual despite your attempt to be an try and suggest your expert on every topic, as evidenced by your over 18,000 posts, your true expertise is making it up as you go along and trying to make everything a conspiracy. So lets look at your latest rant. Don says - " Is the film clip of running of a full race engine for a few seconds with no load and under 3 grand supposed to be proof of dependability?" Tims response - did you really think that engine only made it to something under 3000 rpm ? and yes, we all realize if it isn't your car, that you had someone do, it couldn't be reliable. So Don, just assume it only lasted for 2 minutes and 11 seconds.. it never ran again, never will and don't go away mad, just go away. Don says - "Proof of racing capabilities with no speed or time results shown?" and he rants on and then Don says - "Claims of horsepower at given RPM's have little meaning without documentation".. Tim says - Well Don I am not sure who died and made you King, but I don't need to prove anything to you... period. .. I have never claimed how fast it goes, what horsepower it is, what eta it would run or anything... I realize that pains you being everything is a conspiracy and as the self style expert you are, "proof it" is your common theme, when we both know.. no such proof would ever be enough, because if it wasn't done your way and you don't have it, it cant be any good or it cant be true. So sorry Don to break the bad news to you, but I have more horsepower than you do, Now if you still haven't caught on despite making it very clear, I have no intention of ever providing you with anything... I don't care what you think, and yes, I know after your 18000 posts, with your chest puffed out continually I should in your mind be impressed.. Unfortunately I am not. But if you would like to bring your car and race the dragster or my 49 Plymouth, bring it on. Put your money where your mouth is, or continue to rant about what is it up to now, your 800 miles a day claims and extreme reliability... because Don, we have no proof you have ever driven 800 miles in a day in your car, and given your credibility, no amount of proof would every be sufficient if the shoe was on the other foot, so why should we believe your claim. Now Don, I am sure your blood pressure will rise, and you will head off to the chat room and huff and puff, and should have lots of private messages complaining to moderators. and to your pose of friend(s). That is fine, but by the number of notes I have had from a great deal of members of this forum, there are lots waiting for someone to call you out.. But the reality is I like a huge amount of people would prefer you just go away.. If you don't agree, super.. but your act is wearing a little thin so please.. save your breathe because I have no interest in what you have to say.. and yes, I have repeated that a few times so you get it.. No please.. go away ! This thread was on "The ? Of Chrysler Flathead Hi Performance" not lets get Dons take on why Hi Performance isn't the way to go, and the only thing that makes sense is a 500 miles a day,.. I mean now 800 miles a day flathead.. if you want to start a thread on that topic, please do and I promise you I will stay well away from it.

So this isn't about a flathead and to my one grand father, he like Richard Petty would turn up his nose as it wasn't a Plymouth ! lol I have tried to recreate the conversations from my diary posts and what I can remember of conversations. Most of which I think I remember very well... lol.. Whether I did.. well at least two of the people in this story are still alive (besides me), so maybe I will run it by them sometime! My 1st car, was a car my Dad purchased for me. It was a Plymouth with a slant 6 and an awesome car. The guy had painted it red with a white stripe like a Starsky and Hutch car which of course annoyed all the Ford fans. This wasn't my 1st vehicle as that was a Suzuki 250 Hustler motorcycle and the reason for starting with a motorcycle is you could in 1976, get your entire licence the day you turned 16 for a motorcycle. For a car, it was at least a three week process, so the day I turned 16 I was at the licence bureau when they opened at 8am. By 930am I was a fully licenced motorcycle driver ! But back to my story.. During the summer, I was on the motorcycle all the time, and I have no idea how many miles I put on, but it was a lot that summer. During the summer I got my drivers license and got to drive the Fargo at the farm for Grampa Kingsbury, Dad's pickup to the track hauling a trailer with tires, fuel and parts and had the Plymouth if it was raining hard and I didn't want to pull the Suzuki out of the garage. About 2 miles from the Kingsbury farm (where I live today) is a car wrecking yard which is owned by a cousin. Of course in the area we seem to have a lot of relatives, the reason being as Grampa would say ... a horse and buggy could only travel so far.. I was over picking up something for Dad or Grampa I am not sure which and there just being towed in, was a nice looking 1970 dodge. Sporty, Green, Vinyl top and it immediately caught my eye. I went over, didn't see any damage to body panels although there sure wasn't much rubber on the back tires. As I was collecting whatever I had came for, I said to my cousin John McLean, hey I see you just got a new Dodge in. He laughed and said, you don't want that Tim... its not a Fargo or a Plymouth, and your Mom would kill us if we sold you that, although your Dad might smile. I said ok, so what would that cost. John said, that one might just be a little to expensive for you. I said - "well it looks pretty nice".. he said well it is body wise, but it lost water, overheated and blew a head gasket and that is going to be expensive. I thought, expensive.. my Dad is an engineer, my Grandfather Bolton is an engineer, and my Grandfather Kingsbury could just about fix anything even though I am not sure he graduated from grade 8. I said, well John how much ? His reply $4500.. and I went oh.. I worked at a local Hardware store and did manage to save a few dollars, lol.. plus money helping both Grampas and Dad, and I likely had $2 grand in the bank. I said, well John, can I give you a deposit and see if I can round up the money. John said, look Tim, you want it, I will hold it till you can pay for it. How much money you got saved. I told him close to half, and asked how much of a deposit did he want. His answer, no I wont take a deposit. I will hold it until you tell me you don't want it or you can pay for it. So off I went... My Mom was the bank manager at the local bank so she is the 1st one I asked. Mom, I have some money saved for a car. I need to borrow about $3000 to get it. She smiled, and offered for me to go talk to the loans manager. Well that was a setup. I went in, talked to him about buying a car, and to make a long story short he told me he would take my application, but he didn't think he would approve it given my job at the hardware might pay the loan but that I was still going to school and I was also playing hockey during the winter, which paid $50 a week playing for a team in the OHA so he thought I should save my money. Lol.. and they didn't have any idea that this car didn't even run. So next up time to talk to Grampa.. I knew if I talked to Dad it would get shut down by Mom and would come out it needed work, big time work. So Grampa Kingsbury was next up. I went over told him the whole story, that the car needed work, was over at cousin Johns and I needed $2150 to buy the car, and wanted to borrow another few hundred to get it running. Well Grampa did what Grampa would do.. Well go warm up the truck.. lets go see this car. So over to McLean's yard we went. The Dodge wasn't where it was earlier in the week but Grampa didn't care.. Into the office, found out where John was in the yard, then Grampa headed to their house which is right beside the yard. He went in to talk to Johns wife and Mom for a couple of minutes. John's Mom was a Kingsbury, and then out to the yard we went. Grampa who was a large man, about 6 foot 6 and 280 pounds was easy to spot as he we walked across the 100 acre yard and John yells over.. well well its the Kingsbury Boys and I see you brought the big guns Tim.. Grampa just smiled. He then said, well John, I hear you have my Grandsons 1st car here somewhere. John said, well maybe. Grampa then said, well, how much are the parts to fix this car. John said, well I don't have that engine anywhere in the yard, but tell you what Charlie (my Grampa's name).. if you or Eddy (my Dad) or Earl (my other Grandfather) or Tim want to come out to the yard, anything you can find in my yard that you want for this car you can have for $1. So I do have what would be needed to get it on the road, from another engine, a rad, tires etc, but I just don't have exactly what is in that car. Grampa said - ok well I see.. and you want $4500 for this car. John started to explain how rare the car was and Grampa just help up his oversized mitt (hand).. John stopped.. Grampa said, John, don't try and sell us. I am just asking. John said, yes, if it was anyone but you guys it would be a lot more. Grampa said, ok John. Drag it over to the farm and Ill bring you over the money on Saturday. So there you have it.. my 1st car.. Grampa didn't look at it, he didn't see it, he didn't ask a lot of questions. Now maybe I was his only grandson had something to do with it, I am not sure. On the way home I said, I will get you all the money I have Grampa and are we going to the bank to borrow the money. Grampa said, oh no.. you go get your money sometime and I will get whatever extra we need. Then we need to break this news to your Mom and Dad and well, we maybe in a bit of trouble. I dug out the money I had at home, and then withdrew everything but $10 at the bank and down to the farm I went. As it turned out with a cheque I hadn't cashed, I had a total of $2300. So I needed $2200 to close the deal. Grampa and I went over to the Junk yard and into the office we went.. There was John and his wife and Grampa said well John I came to pay for the car. Johns wife Jean said, car, what car.. .. Grampa and I said nothing, and John started to explain about the car he got from a Ford Dealership that was a trade in, and they called him for an engine and when he didn't have one, nor did any other local yard he wound up buying it. She just smiled and said, ok and how much did you sell this car to your Mothers Brother and his grandson.. John told her $4500.. She looked at him and said, $4500.. really.. Poor John was on the defensive. Grampa looked at John then looked at Jean, Johns wife and said, well here is Tim's $2300 he has saved and here is $2200 I am loaning him. You folks can discuss it after we leave and if its $4500 ok and anything different, leave me a note in the mail box if I owe you or you owe us ! Grampa then looked at me and said, lets go look at this car you just bought. So back to the farm we went, and down to the barn we went where John had tucked it away. I said did you check it out Grampa and he said, not before you were here to show me. So we swung open one of the big barn doors and Grampa proceeds to look under it, open the trunk, open the doors and everywhere except under the hood.He looks at me and says - "you do like green don't you". I said, well for cars, yes, tractors no. He laughed. I asked him if he wanted to see the engine, and he said, well if you want to show me, but I know what is under the hood. Given all the trim badging and markings were removed from the car, I was curious if he really knew. So I said so you know its a slant six Grampa? He smiled and said, so have they upped the cubic inches of the slant six to 426 cubic inches. Obviously the gig was up and there under the hood was the legendary elephant that was a 426 Hemi. That's it for part 1. Now looking back, does this qualify as a barn find ? Lol In part 2 : Explaining this to Dad... maybe a lot easier than explaining it to Mom ! Also, the tail of "Kingsbury's stick together" and the $1500 rebate from McLeans.... making the purchase price $3000.. That was good news, lol, would have been even better if it came before I told Mom I bought a car that didn't run for $4500!

or he is taking automotive engineering or reading articles. Cool, and I hate to be negative, but he is going no where fast that I see. On the reliability, there are those who no amount of proof would ever be enough, and for those, please stay in the slow lane, try and keep it around 2000 rpm and I can likely find an article on following your vacuum gauge for better performance. But with numerous stock car racing examples of going an entire season with a couple of engines, with revs in excess of 5000 rpm. and most engine damage from the dirt factor and the inability to keep the air clean going into the engine, there is lots of evidence of flathead mopars ability to run at higher rpm for long distances. That is not to suggest that there is not the ability to lessen an engines life by increasing the rev red line, but there are those who are happy in the closer to stock level in the slow lane, and then there are those of us who prefer a little more spice to our lives.. for those... "meet my little friend" lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r28OZHAAXUU And for those who don't think over 6000 rpm is possible, put your money on the table because I am happy to take your bets and 100% of the money I win will go to charity.. Now 9000 rpm as discussed in the post on hamb.. I wont say never, but I don't know how to get you there today.. Tim

yes I saw that discussion. I believe it is about 14.5 to 1.

Well I often hear the "weak crank" story, but it seems to always be ford or chev guys who were running around with true weak cast cranks and babbitt bearings. Both the engines made on the USA side (23 1/2") and the Canadian engine (25 1/2") had forged cranks and insert bearings. So while agree the offset is corrected in the big block, it really isn't until real extreme rpm, or poor oil, or as you point out "self inflected by the owner" that there was issues. As well the big block with the 4 3/4 inch stroke with short rods (7.75") do have pressure put on the engine, where the longer rods in say a 4 1/4" motor doesn't have as much pressure. In fact using the 238 longer rods (8.0") with custom piston so the pin position can be changed, helps that. But on the whole I firmly believe both the small and large block engines are equally rough and tough engines ! But then James, I am preaching to the choir I realize.

It is a very good point. You can get into way more trouble not stopping than not starting. So as I covered in the blog on the car being referenced here. 12" Chrysler brakes from a vintage Chrysler, a sleeved master cylinder, new lines, new shocks etc were definitely key components. But they of course we all know I wont be breaking any speed limits on public roads just like everyone else here so its not a major issue I guess.. lol Truth is I think all of that is important, even though compared to some of the braking systems of Ford and Chev, Mopar was way ahead of the pack. Improving the breaking system, even if its just sleeving the master cylinder and making sure its got great lines etc is important so great point !

As others have pointed out its not quite that many cubes, but unlike other I tend to go by the age old saying of there is no replacement for displacement. So in that vein, Tim Keith is correct, the legendary Hudson had the advantage when they came out with their 308 ci motor which was a 4 1/2" stroke and 7.2 to 1 compression, and soon after with Dodge putting dual carbs on the truck Hudson put 2 carbs on to a car from the factory. At the time people said, why bother and it wont last. Well the answer was because they could and the engine was very capable of 100,000 miles. But back to the flathead mopar. Using this formula from Walter Chrysler's Chrysler Engineering Technical Manual for Cubic Inch Displacement which is good enough for the girls I dance with. CID = NOC x 0.7854 x bore2 x stroke The big block 265 ci flathead which I have heard called all kinds of things comes out like this Stock - (3 7/16") 3.4375 bore and ( 4 3/4") 4.750 stroke is 264.497 ci Here are then all of the cubic inch displacements based on over bores and obviously you can round up and down Bored out 10 over - 3.4475 = 266.03838737437 30 over – 3.4675 = 269.13408074437 40 over - 3.4775 = 270.68864259938 60 over – 3.4975 = 273.81119664937 80 over – 3.5175 = 276.95165781937 90 over – 3.5275 = 278.52860357437 125 over - 3.4375 = 284.08316835937 Stroked to 4 7/8” = 4.875 would be 291.55904121094 cubic inches For me you have a couple of things to consider when over boring. Today, one of your big issues isn't with the block take a bore out as far a .125 it starts with can you find pistons and rings ? They used to be easily available, but now are getting harder and harder to find without going to custom made. As well once you take a block out .125 there is no next bore level so when the engine is stock and needs bored to clean up cylinders obviously you have lots of meat to bore. At .125 your at the limit. Now in terms of blocks, all blocks made in Windsor from 1952 onward are capable of being bored out by .125 As to reliability, while there is something to be said about taking an engine right out to the limits of performance and limiting its life span, I can provide you lots of evidence of 10s of thousands of miles on engines bored out that far and running just fine. But of course its the age old argument by many. If I leave it rock stock it will last longer, so I should leave it like that, as the other guys says, well maybe but I want more power out of this engine. Everyone has to decide where they are on the risk vs reward scale. While there is no right or wrong answer I am definitely further to the right on the scale !

that is an awesome car.. did you see the one sold Saturday on tv /Barrett Jackson ? I listed it up on the other forum http://p15-d24.com/topic/37856-1954-dodge-royal-indianapolis-500-pace-car-convertible-sold/

No the engine was never dyno'd as it really didn't matter although I believe it is definitely north of stock.. lol We didn't really build the 1949 to go drag racing, but who knows, it might be interesting to take it to the Mopar only drag racing at Chrysler Carlisle in July. Might be an idea. The top speed, will maybe have to go to a private track as, well posting a speed in excess of the posted speed limit, is providing evidence you were speeding ! Lol, we will definitely to a blog entry on her in the spring and maybe one prior to that covering some of the questions and things people want expanded on. Oh and yes, we are looking forward to giving her a little more throttle! Thanks for reading and glad your enjoying it as much as I am of doing it for you !

well I am located 50 miles west of Toronto, and when I was the cto of Bell Canada I had offices in Montreal and Toronto, so I can certainly help you out in that neck of the woods. Toronto to Niagara falls is a couple of hours. But Winnipeg your going to want to be going north from Ontario to Manitoba unless you want to go up through the states. But from Niagra Falls your about 3-4 hours from the Legendary George Asche in PA. And if you can at all pull it off Chrysler Carlisle or All Chrysler Nationals is the worlds biggest 1 breed car show .. Its in Carlisle PA and is July 10th - 12th. If you can at all pull it off, it is definitely worth while making the trek ! http://www.carlisleevents.com/carlisle-events/carlisle-chrysler-nationals/default.aspx The AoK booth with be in Row E - spots 5 & 6 and maybe 7 ! Tim

Your transmission looks like it came out of a 53-54 Dodge, Desoto or Chrysler maybe with a Hemi and a fluid drive. Or it was a Plymouth and someone changed the front shaft/collar. So you could have that rebuilt for your 49 Dodge and use it, or change your Dodge to a 3speed standard with over drive etc. So as I said in my email George Asche's has been rebuilding and playing with these for something like 60 years. Give him a call.. 814-354-2621 and he will confirm what I am guessing or tell you exactly what it is. If you want it rebuilt he can definitely do that, and if you want to sell it as is, we would definitely be interested. Feel free to drop me a line at fargopickupking@yahoo.com Tim

I am not sure what the pattern is or what your front or rear is. I am sure it is back in your build notes here. I know I have put on 12" brakes from a Chrysler, so I had to change the rims to accommodate the brakes. 15" Chrysler rims. So I havethat is why I had to go from the small 1949 hubcaps to the large full size caps. I do know I have seen guys take modern rims that didn't have tabs for hubcaps and got them to work. How I am not 100% sure although I expect someone on the forum might now how to get old school hubcaps to work on new style rims. Maybe there are clips you can weld on ? Not sure..But the Plymouth Hubcaps would set off the look of your car if you can pull it off.

Attached is my 1949 Plymouth with the original hubcaps. When I switched to Chrysler 12" brakes I had to put on bigger rims. I had them blasted and powder coated red, and then got a set of 1949-50 full sized vintage hubcaps for hubcaps.com I did see them on ebay.com but always seemed to have lots of dings etc. I cant remember who recommended I try hubcaps.com but it was great advise. It did take them a while to find a set and then restore them, but they were spectacular. They were not cheap, their pricing is online and here is a direct link to the Plymouth page is the hubcaps you are looking for are the ones of the time period for a Plymouth. http://www.hubcaps.org/plymouthpass.html Here is the guy I was dealing with. Lorenzo Martinez Hubcaps.com 800-826-5880 909- 597-2600 support@hubcaps.com

lol... yep, like the r10. the 40 Chrysler.. not so much. But already sold and gone, wont help any of us sadly !

Now if in that pile you find some of these, snag them !

You need to get in there a little closer and look at the serial number on the block close to the head (front of engine) and cast into the side of the block will be a date code. Here is a link to give you a pretty decent field guide on mopar flathead serial numbers for the L-head or Flathead 6 http://www.t137.com/registry/help/otherengines/otherengines.php Tim

OMG.. I resisted getting into this but I cant stand it anymore.. Rotella Diesel oil, or hydraulic oil, or 10 weight oil.. guys guys guys.. The reason engines use "break in oil" and historical was higher detergent was to make sure that any metal coming loose at break in, went to the bottom of the pan and didn't float in through the system, and the idea of dropping oil after "x" miles with "x" being a short interval was to get rid of any metal that was loose and in the bottom of the pan. It is true, old valve seats and valves way back were definitely different that today, just as gas used to have lots of lead in it to cool valves. So here is my best advice for those who don't think I have a clue.. call customer service of whatever oil manufacturer and ask for their technical services group. They all have them. Tell them your thinking about using "pick a product"... say their 15-40 diesel oil in a flathead gasoline mopar and see what they say.. You can tell them its freshly rebuilt, 30 years old or a million miles.. it wont matter. I expect also that 99% of their technical support teams will be able to recommend a product they sell that will get you going. So what I am saying is if you have a brand you like, then by all means call them. There are lots of great options.. hydraulic fluid, 10 weight oil and diesel oil isn't one of them honest. Then go have a look at the video of either of our cars freshly being started https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8y7yB5J7YNWI2Rnnvn8rig And this may sound like I am trying to impress you, but that is far from the truth.. I am trying to impress upon you that we know what we are talking about and have rebuilt and broken in a great number of engines of the flathead and performance type. By all means give us a call 814-354-2621 and we will be happy to have a chat on what he use, what we do during break in etc. Last one.. without question if the automotive engineers from Chrysler - of the 30s, 40's and 50's had the oils of today available to them and cost wasn't an object, they would all be using full synthetic. Id bet the farm on that one ! Now stepping off my soap box and apologizing to one and all... but holy cow I just couldn't help myself here ! Tim

lol..and your 51 is still bigger than the baby of the family.. the smallest one made the 1949 Plymouth business coupe ! The hoodless shot was just going out for a quick around the block test drive with a few performance mods in place.

Hi Marc - just saw this. The Chrysler is a New Yorker its not a Windsor and while it thinks it is a torque-master 6 cylinder so it can have an AoK triple carb intake on her, its a straight 8 - 323 cubic inches - so its lucky that it has a dual carb intake !

Well the pattern is complete! Attached are a couple of pictures. The one with the blue cores was just before Christmas, and the other two were actually taken last week. The 1st intake will actually be cast tomorrow and then a 2nd one will be cast with the integrated water tube early next week. It will be made with its own mini foam core for the water tube. The tube will be on the inside, or block side of the intake. In that way it becomes easy to make it optional, without changing the outside appearance. Those two should be off to the machine shop early next week. Once that work is completed and everything is checked and double checked dimension wise, we will be doing some testing to confirm our flow numbers and other factors. George will then get into finalizing linkage and all the stainless steel pieces will be manufactured, machined etc and ready to mate up with the completed intakes. Then assuming everything goes well, and there are not too many changes, we will give the thumbs up to start casting the 1st real production batch of intakes, then off to the machine shop. Right now I think we are still on track for delivery in March/April time frames. When they are done as we a have said, we will ship them based on 1st paid for, will be 1st shipped. As I have said before, If your concerned they will be sold out and you won’t get one, don't worry about that. But if you one of those people that has to have one before their buddy has one, well then get your order in to get in the line ! Right now there are about 1/2 dozen ordered. Yes there are many times that in terms of people inquiring about them and expressing interest.