High price of oil and what can we do?

[JIPJOBXX]

A very good friend of mine sent this to me and it make sence just to check it out, so here it is:

http://www.americansolutions.com/actioncenter/petitions/?Guid=54ec6e43-75a8-445b-aa7b-346a1e096659

The site is very busy now but its I think we all need to do to get this fuel problem solved-Action! Not just cheap words.

[bobby horne]

Drilling for more oil is only a temperary short term fix....The main CAUSE of the oil problems is too much POPULATION and too many vehicles in use today...300 million people here and getting larger every day....In a very few years we will be at 400 million people...Think of what gas will cost then.....

[hkestes41]

Actually gas prices are a matter of supply and demand just like everything else.

Emerging economies like China for instance are driving demand higher while supply has remained fairly flat. If you look at demand increases from 2000 to 2006, the US total petromeum demand increased 5% while that of China increased over 50%. China now ranks #2 globally behind the US.

Over that same period US production has decreased nearly 13% and refining capacity has increased only 5% do to increases at current refineries. We have not built a new refinery in the US in nearly 30 years.

Here is an interesting link to global petroleum production, usage etc.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/country/index.cfm

[randroid]

Gents,

In the early 1960's the steel manufacturers were gouging consumers with exorbitant prices and the government put a cap on it. Some of you may recall JFK's speech in which he said, "My Daddy always told me that steel men were sons of bitches", and the price of steel returned to 'reasonable'.

Around 1970 it as determined that the US auto industry was similarly engaged in profiteering and the government put a similar cap on their profit. (18% for new cars and 22% for accessories.)

In the first quarter of this year Exxon-Mobile bragged of 5.1 billion in profits, and that was only what they couldn't hide. The government's action was to not tax them on it and to deny even a windfall tax measure.

This forum is not the place for political discussion and I'm not attempting to hijack this thread for any political agenda, but I will keep the above-stated facts in mind next November.

-Randy

[Captain Neon]

Drilling for more oil is only a temperary short term fix....The main CAUSE of the oil problems is too much POPULATION and too many vehicles in use today...300 million people here and getting larger every day....In a very few years we will be at 400 million people...Think of what gas will cost then.....

So, Bobby, are you volunteering to be first in line to give up your vehicles and then be exterminated to help with the "population problem"? I didn't think so.

Now, if you want to derail the gravy train that is socialised government welfare, and get lazy Americans off their duffs and into the jobs that "nobody wants," that will do more for everyone's bottom line than any conservation or population reduction scheme.

Witnessing first-hand an employee w/ a deadbeat boyfriend and her unwillingness to put in a full day's work because welfare is such an easy gig, it is obvious to me that there are too many people that think they are entitled to basic wants at the expense of the rest of us that do the work. Any money they actually get from a paychecque goes to pay for toys (stereos, cars, Nintendo, etc.), and food, clothing, and shelter is the responsibility of the rest of us in their minds.

[Captain Neon]

BTW, which political party will begin hitting me up for donations by giving them vital contact information when I sign their "petition?" Been there and done that! I made the mistake of signing a petition being circulated by a "non-partisan political organisation" once. It took me seven years, three moves, letters sent in business reply envelopes, harsh words with telemarketers, and an independent run for office to finally bring an end to the hounding for money by politicians and a certain political party.

I will not sign a petition unless I know the petitioner and they can honestly tell me that it is a real petition and not an attempt to build a mailing list. Issue petitions do not get my signature. Needless to say, I haven't signed a petition in two years and that was just to get my own name on the Minnesota General Election ballot.

[hkestes41]

The main CAUSE of the oil problems is too much POPULATION

As reported by John Stossel in one of his 20/20 "Give Me a Break" segments

We could take the entire world population, move everyone into the state of Texas, and the population density there would still be less than that of New York City.

[hkestes41]

According to the American Petroleum Institute Federal and State and Local Taxes account for $0.47 cents per gallon of gasoline on average.

http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/upload/GAS_TAX_MAP_JANUARY_2008-2.pdf

Based on company filings to the federal government.

The latest published data for 2007 show the oil and natural gas industry earned 8.3 cents for every dollar of sales compared to 7.3 cents for all U.S. manufacturing and 8.9 cents for U.S. manufacturing, excluding the financially challenged auto industry.

If that 8.3% is applied to a $4.00 gallon of gasoline then the "oil industry" (includes all the various companies that gas passes through from well to refiner to retailer) earned $0.332 cents per gallon while the various government entities "earned" $0.47 cents per gallon.

[RobertKB]

Drilling for more oil in the US will not lower the price of a barrel of oil or gasoline. Think the oil companies will sell dometic oil for less? They will charge the world price for it and get it. Their only concern, like any big corporation, is the bottom line. I live in Alberta where the tar sands are and they have huge reserves. I pay as much for gasoline as anyone else in Canada. I don't get it any cheaper just because it is in my backyard. The only way prices will come down is lower demand. That is unlikely to happen as everywhere in the world wants oil. North Americans tend to be rather profligate with it so look in the mirror or be prepared to pay what is charged. I have a nephew well up in the oil business and he says get used to it because prices are not going to ever be significantly lower again.

[TodFitch]

According to the American Petroleum Institute Federal and State and Local Taxes account for $0.47 cents per gallon of gasoline on average.

http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/upload/GAS_TAX_MAP_JANUARY_2008-2.pdf

Based on company filings to the federal government.

If that 8.3% is applied to a $4.00 gallon of gasoline then the "oil industry" (includes all the various companies that gas passes through from well to refiner to retailer) earned $0.332 cents per gallon while the various government entities "earned" $0.47 cents per gallon.

Large retailers typically have a profit margin of around 2% while small local retailers typically need about 3.5% to stay in business.

http://www.retailers.com/eduandevents/ask/askprofitmargin.html

Every state I have lived in have sales taxes higher than 3.5% so by your logic the state has "earned" more than the store. (Also, the fees Visa and MasterCard charge the retailer are probably bigger than the store's margin too. So the banks are taxing the retailer as well as charging you usury.)

The real question is what do you want the government to do. I personally like having paved roads without pot holes, clean water to drink, waste removed or treated, parks and forests to vacation in, safe aircraft to fly in, freedom from worrying about crime, schools that everyone can afford to go to, ... the list goes on (and on and on and on).

Each person has their own list and politics is about deciding what is important and what should be done by government (directly or by regulation) or by the free market .

And nothing is free, so once you have your list of what the government should do you need to decide how to pay for it. Which is also what politics is about.

So if you really care about these things, get involved with politics. If not, then at least be informed and vote.

[Captain Neon]

Very good point Tod. I've listened to a few people over the years complain about things the government does. Then when I ask them if they voted' date=' the reply was about the same; "No I didn't like anyone who was running, so didn't vote". My reply to those people who don't vote is simple. "If you didn't vote, you can't complain". There is always at least one person you like better than the other one running. And, if you don't like everything about the one you like better, vote for him anyway since he fits your beliefs better than the other one. At least that way, you then have a right to complain about him. By not voting you are also saying you don't care about your rights. Also remember, not everyone running (or friends that you know) are always going to see eye to eye with you on everything, but the friends are still friends.[/quote']

Norm, I have to respectfully disagree w/ you on that one. For me, and many others, there are certain things that are non-negotiable. I will not go into the list here. When no candidate meets those minimum requirements then there is no point in voting for any candidate.

Just as an example, let's just say that one only has two choices for an office to choose from and the only difference between the two is that one thinks it a good idea that on any given day he can rape your daughter and the other thinks that it he should be able to rape both your wife and your daughter. Obviously, neither is some one you want to give your vote to and so then you choose to stay home because both candidates are unacceptable.

I look at my non-negotiables and minimum requirements and no one running for office in my neck of the woods is acceptable. In other words, they have been weighed, they have been measured, and they all have been found wanting.

I was so disappointed in my choices in 2006, that I made sure that there was at least one candidate that I could trust and that person was me. Would have preferred not to run. My biggest gripe about the whole experience is the promises made to me by those asking me to run that were not kept. For that reason, I will probably never run for office again.

Am I involved in politics? Depends on your definition. Am I involved in campaigns for elective office or a political party? NO! Am I doing my best to educate people about the issues that concern me? yes. In my mind, I am involved in politics even if I do not vote or involve myself in a political party or campaign.

I believe that I do have a right to complain and I have the right to express my displeasure by withholding my vote and explaining why. Until we get rid of primary elections and political parties getting special privileges for their candidates, I will have a lot to gripe about and much to work for towards change. Like him or hate him, Arnold Schwarrzenegger was elected governor of California on a multi-page ballot and his supporters managed to find his name. To tell me that I have to choose between only Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum on Election Day insults my intelligence. I refuse to give credence to a corrupt system by consenting to vote.

[hkestes41]

Large retailers typically have a profit margin of around 2% while small local retailers typically need about 3.5% to stay in business.

http://www.retailers.com/eduandevents/ask/askprofitmargin.html

Every state I have lived in have sales taxes higher than 3.5% so by your logic the state has "earned" more than the store. (Also, the fees Visa and MasterCard charge the retailer are probably bigger than the store's margin too. So the banks are taxing the retailer as well as charging you usury.)

The real question is what do you want the government to do. I personally like having paved roads without pot holes, clean water to drink, waste removed or treated, parks and forests to vacation in, safe aircraft to fly in, freedom from worrying about crime, schools that everyone can afford to go to, ... the list goes on (and on and on and on).

Each person has their own list and politics is about deciding what is important and what should be done by government (directly or by regulation) or by the free market .

And nothing is free, so once you have your list of what the government should do you need to decide how to pay for it. Which is also what politics is about.

So if you really care about these things, get involved with politics. If not, then at least be informed and vote.

Tod,

My point was not that the government gets too much in the way of tax money on gas sales. The point I was trying to make is that politicians (who place the taxes on the sales), the media and therefore the public in general who accept most anything shown on the 6 O'clock news as gospel rant about the profits of the "oil companies" without having complete information.

What I would like to know is exactly when profits became a bad thing. Isn't that what most companies are in business to do is earn a profit? Unless the oil company execs put the profits in a tin can buried in the back yard those profits go back into the economy when they spend it. Not to mention that just about anyone who owns shares in a mutual fund or 401K owns "oil company" stock. So when the start talking about limiting profits, siezing "excess" profits or passing windfall profit taxes we are the ones limited, siezed or taxed.

[Captain Neon]

Please list me as some one that would rather the oil companies show a profit than the government place caps or seize "excess" profits. If only the government would get out of the way and allow the "evil" oil companies to build new and improved refineries w/ modern technology rather than the 30+ year old technology and worn out equipment. Allow the oil companies to do what they do best, turn crude oil into useful chemicals, esp. gasoline and lubricants, and we will see the prices we pay at the pump decrease (supply and demand). We may even see an improvement in our personal financial standing with a better performing stock portfolio and less "unemployed and underemployed" sucking from the government teat when they reach for the brass ring working for the "evil" oil industry.

[fredsv8shop]

Gentleman,

This morning at the gas station :

Regular unleaded per LITER : 1,64 Euro

Diesel per LITER : 1,44 Euro

LPG per LITER : 0, 63 Euro

Overhere it is not the oil company who make the big profit , it is our

governement : 73 % is Tax on fuel !!!!!!

I converted my 50 Buzz Coupe to LPG

Fred

[Mr. Belvedere]

I personally think that if we just start drilling in the arctic and off shore that it will cause oil prices to start falling even in the short term. With the promise of more oil available at home, more will be left for the world market to buy and it puts us at a strategic advantage. Our economy will be much more stabil when we do not have to rely on regimes around the world who hate us or who have unstabil chaotic governments. Unfortuneatly, neither of our presidential candidates are willing to drill. Both, want to drive us off the cliff and leave us hamstringed economically and strategically. Which is why I may just sit this election out since I am not seeing much difference between the two. Depressing!

[Captain Neon]

Unfortuneatly, neither of our presidential candidates are willing to drill.

Just for the record, there are more than two Presidential candidates as there are more than two political parties in the United States. For the record, the Greens, Libertarians, and the Constitution Party all have Presidential candidates qualified for the ballot in most states. But you are right, there is little to no difference between the two majour parties in the US. Also, please be aware that I am dissatisfied w/ the minour party candidates in 2008, and it is unlikely that I will be voting in 2008. Colorado has pretty easy ballot access so it is possible that there will be an independent candidate for some office that I could support, but looking at the current crop of candidates of any party I am unimpressed.

[crazycasey]

I personally think that if we just start drilling in the arctic and off shore that it will cause oil prices to start falling even in the short term. With the promise of more oil available at home, more will be left for the world market to buy and it puts us at a strategic advantage. Our economy will be much more stabil when we do not have to rely on regimes around the world who hate us or who have unstabil chaotic governments. Unfortuneatly, neither of our presidential candidates are willing to drill. Both, want to drive us off the cliff and leave us hamstringed economically and strategically. Which is why I may just sit this election out since I am not seeing much difference between the two. Depressing!

I think that if we start drilling in the arctic and off shore that we will see decreased prices (slightly), but then all of our oil will end up getting sold to China, and in 40 years we'll be out, we won't have developed any alternative energy sources, and we, as a nation will be totally screwed.

I think the reason that the government isn't allowing this drilling now, is because it's a kind of ace in the hole for their own perverse uses. If we ever decide to start a massive global war, then we'll have enough oil to win it. Sick, huh? Anyway, for those of you who blame the environmentalists for not being able to drill for this oil I can say one thing..."Get your heads out of your"...sorry. COME ON!!! Like the environmentalists have ever suceeded to that degree in ANY endeavor?

Anyway, personally, I've been riding my bicycle EVERYWHERE, and not just lately...I carefully plan my trips to places that are too far to pedal, and I enjoy the use of either my Dodge or my Falcon when I decide to use them, without guilt, because I am doing my part. I just hope that everybody else will follow suit, because, in 40 years, even if gas is $20 a gallon, wouldn't you hope that you can still get $40 worth to take your old Dodge around the block? I do. How much would it suck to not be able to get a drop of gas for any price?

Also, since I am on my soap box here...QUIT BUYING NEW CARS! In fact...QUIT BUYING NEW ANYTHING!!! Why? We have become a disposable society and it perpetuates itself because of our consumer actions. "Planned Obsolesence" is a distinctly American phenomenon, because we are all locked into this circle of having to have the latest and greatest, while all of our old, and sometimes perfectly good stuff slowly finds it's way to the landfill. If we quit buying new stuff, the economy would be in worse shape than it currently is, but new and emerging markets would eventually gain steam and we'd find our way out of it.

We need to see a global move away from plastics. I wonder if anybody can post a statistic on how much of our precious crude ends up going into plastics? I bet a staggering amount goes into those damn plastic water bottles that people buy by the flat at Costco. Hell people, in most cities in the US there is water that is perfectly drinkable coming right out of the tap, but people buy expensive bottled water that comes from springs that have almost no regulation for cleanliness or water quality because...they like the taste.

Anyway, I've switched every light in my house to compact flourescent, and I turn off every light except for the room that I am currently in...my PG&E bill, with three adults in a four bedroom house, running two full-time home businesses is less than $100 a month.

I ride my bike EVERYWHERE...on Saturday, I went 12 miles round trip, stopping at the video store for a movie, ross to get some underwear, home depot to get a toilet seat, the pet store to buy cat food, and the grocery store to buy some stuff to make dinner, and carried it all home on my bicycle. I've only put two gallons of gas in my car this week, my weekly fuel bill is $2.00 cheaper than it was when gas was $2.00 a gallon, and it's topped $4.50 here now.

I compost, I replaced my lawn with vegetables in a residential cul de sac, my neighbors hate me...and why do I do it? Because I hope that somebody will see, and say YES...THAT'S THE WAY!!! Because otherwise, it's futile!

[wayfarer]

Alot of meaningful and interesting thoughts, hmmmmmm. I'll toss in my $0.03 worth (inflation, ya know..)

The US is the world superpower, like it or not. The military runs on oil. Oil for trucks, oil for tanks, oil for aircraft carriers. When the rest of the world runs out we will still have ours. No, we may not have enough for our beloved hobby, but at least we will still be using the English language and debating the merits of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. What we need is a Congress that is not in the hands of the far left telling us that nuclear power is a bad thing, telling us that animals come before people (read that as hydro-power being bad...), and telling us that the free market is now a bad thing and they, Congress, will look out for us. One of Ronald Reagans best quotes is something like; "When you hear, "Hi, we're from the government and we're here to help", be afraid."

The price of oil will never go down, but we can curtail alot of wasteful use, move into other energy fields (I'm willing to burn coal to heat my house if it means putting fuel in my truck), and try a little harder at conservation.

This election cycle, my only measurement of any candidate is their position on my personal freedom or their attempt to limit it. I will vote Freedom First.

[crazycasey]

This election cycle, my only measurement of any candidate is their position on my personal freedom or their attempt to limit it. I will vote Freedom First.

You see, that's tricky for me brother...because I don't want my personal freedoms limited in any way, and I've yet to vote for anything that might limit them. I used to jokingly say "Vote No", and people would say "On What", and I'd say "EVERYTHING".

But, people and corportations need to be more socially responsible. Unfortunately, making fines the only measure of punishment in place for a lack of responsility means that the poor are responsible and the rich can do what they want.

I'm really not trying to argue one way or the other on this. I'm stuck. I'm as red blooded an American as the next, but I don't want some fat b@$t@rds who don't give a damn about energy conservation or the environment to limit my personal freedom with their actions. It's a total catch 22.

[Mr. Belvedere]

Well Casey, I must have my head up my "___". Everywhere I go any more its "green this" and "reduce, reuse, and recycle that", "global warming this" and "carbon footprint that". Nightly news is always showing how mankind is destroying the environment. Companies are advertising everywhere that they are doing everything in their power to help the environmenrt. Frankly I'd say that they do have a tremmendous amount of power.

[Captain Neon]

Well Casey, I must have my head up my "___". Everywhere I go any more its "green this" and "reduce, reuse, and recycle that", "global warming this" and "carbon footprint that". Nightly news is always showing how mankind is destroying the environment. Companies are advertising everywhere that they are doing everything in their power to help the environmenrt. Frankly I'd say that they do have a tremmendous amount of power.

Put me on the list of those with his head up his "___". I have to agree with Mr. Belvedere. If one looks at the causes of the environmentalists in 1970 vs. 2008, one would have to agree 1970s environmentalists are now mainstream and even a little backward by today's Green standards.

As I've tried to explain to a lot of people. Since politics is about compromise and give and take, to get what one wants one must ask for much more than one could ever expect. That model has worked well in these united States since at least 1900 if not before. Why settle for half a loaf? Ask for two loaves and you will get one whole loaf. The environmentalists have used this technique and it has worked well for them.

Asian culture has realised this for millenia. "Good Americans" need to realise the same or we will continue to see "progress" in the wrong direction.

[david lazarus]

We need to see a global move away from plastics. I wonder if anybody can post a statistic on how much of our precious crude ends up going into plastics? I bet a staggering amount goes into those damn plastic water bottles that people buy by the flat at Costco. Hell people, in most cities in the US there is water that is perfectly drinkable coming right out of the tap, but people buy expensive bottled water that comes from springs that have almost no regulation for cleanliness or water quality because...they like the taste.

QUOTE]

Plastics are generally just a component of the refining of crude oil, at the bottom end the "sludge" is I think tar based products, at the top end highly processed "spirit" type products. Fuel is somewhere in the middle. If you don't take out the components out that go into plastic then they would just be dumped or blended back into the lower grade uses of the raw crude.

I would like to see Govt's cap their slice of the pie instead of filling their coffers whilst blaming others and saying there is nothing they can do.

[crazycasey]

Well I'm glad you both agree with me. As far as our great strides in conservation goes...I see more SUV's on the road than ever, and I just hired a 17 year old whose household energy bill runs over $2,000 a month...and no she's not growing pot. I recently quit a job where the owner refused to recycle anything, unless the government started paying him to do so (he threatened to fire me if he saw me spending company time seperating trash and recyclables) and the local organic foods market uses 100% incandecent light bulbs.

These same new environmentalists made Jesse James of West Coast Choppers pay a fine when his bikes didn't meet emissions standards, but said publicly that they weren't interested in making him bring bikes into compliance retro-actively, which James' attorneys noted would have been much more costly than the fine. They charge fines to refineries in San Francisco for refusing to retrofit new catalytic converters to their stacks that are far less than the money that it would cost to actually perform the retrofit, and they stand idly be while thousands of gallons of toxic waste are dumped into the bay. They see environmentalism as a revenue source, but I can't see them forgoing the potential money from selling domestic oil on the world market if there wasn't an alterior motive.

As a Nation, we're about as green as the Russian River here in California. Actually, I guess it's more brown really, but I guess I'll just wait for Captain Neon to come on and tell me that I am wrong...

Oh, by the way...I'm experimenting with growing a small amount of corn to produce ethanol. I am fueling my still with burned biomass from other food crops that I have grown. I just want to see if I can make ethanol without using gasoline. I've heard it's impossible.

[James_Douglas]

In the 1960 you had to take a bath after swimming in the Russian River or you would get a bad rash!

The 1970's and its “environmental extremists” in Northern California at least got enough done that it allows kids up there today to swim in the river and not worry about getting sick like we did.

…………………

I have a LOT of friends that are bitching about fuel prices. All I can say is Sondra and I just sit back and laugh.

In 1983 I read a masters thesis of someone I was going to school with. They figured out that the “typical” person living in San Francisco in a house with 90 year old leaking windows, no insulation, old appliances, and the like used less energy than a person living in the most energy efficient place in any of the suburbs within 200 miles.

The reason was simple. Gasoline. Since most people here in SF take the Muni or walk 80% of the time they just don’t use very much gas.

That stuck with me and is one of the reasons why I live in San Francisco’s Richmond District.

Sondra and I drive a COMBINED 3500 miles a year. We walk or ride MUNI to almost everything we need to do. A lot of Muni’s electricity comes from Hetch-Hetchy.

So as fuel prices go up the percentage out of pocket gas expenses for us gas is so low as to be of little concern.

Everyone makes choices in life. People who have combined household mileages of 30K+ in a year, each and every year, should really just stop bitching. You made a life choice to be dependant on gasoline so man-up and live with it!

J James

[TodFitch]

Plastics are generally just a component of the refining of crude oil, at the bottom end the "sludge" is I think tar based products, at the top end highly processed "spirit" type products. Fuel is somewhere in the middle. If you don't take out the components out that go into plastic then they would just be dumped or blended back into the lower grade uses of the raw crude.

I would like to see Govt's cap their slice of the pie instead of filling their coffers whilst blaming others and saying there is nothing they can do.

I was under the impression that with current refinery technology they could pretty much convert everything in a barrel of crude into whatever product (gas, diesel, tar, etc.) they wanted.