Trans swap

[terryracing86]

Thanks for adding me to the page. I have a 51 cambridge and want to do a trans swap to a 5spd. I’ve been told T5, FM132(Ford ranger) and the a833od trans. Who has done a T5 that can point me in right direction of what trans I need and what extras are needed. Thanks 

[Andydodge]

When I had my 1941 Plymouth Coupe I had decided that a T5 was going to be the best bet........I am a hotrodder and I decided that the S10 pickup/ T5 gearbox would be the best fit due to it having a front mounted shifter that would clear the spilt bench seat that the Plymouth had.......there are various T5's available and I'd suggest you investigate exactly which one is the best for you exact use.........there are 2 types of mounting setups, ie, a "ford" gearbox to bellhousing pattern and a GM pattern........adaptors are available to suit either and it depends on what exact T5 you are using, there are also differences in the speedo drive gears, internal gearbox ratios and a few other things.............another thing you need to take into account is that the original mopar gearbox setup uses a rubber "doughnut" at each side of the bellhousing and the mopar gearbox just "hangs" from the bellhousing, also the handbrake is on the mopar gearbox..............the T5 gearbox in its original setup uses a crossmembers that has a rubber mount under the rear of the actual gearbox, and has NO handbrake stuff as the handbrake for the S10 and other T5 uses is in the rear brakes so you'll have to decide how you are going to have a handbrake.........most people swap the whole rear axle to get both better ratios and the handbrake............I ended up selling my car and gearbox before installing the T5 however I would not hesitate to do this swap if the situation arose again............there have been a few different gearbox swaps on this forum, including the T5, Mazda and Ford Ranger, from memory..........hope this helps.................Andy Douglas

[terryracing86]

AndyDodge I’ve been looking for the ranger fm132 trans and have had no luck on that one. Heard the gm t5 would work but haven’t heard of anyone who had done it or anyone that would reply back with the info on the swap. I’m also swapping the rearend out for a Ford 8.8 disc brake rear and doing the scarebird disc brake conversion on the front. Would love to have more specifics of someone doing the gm t5 though

[Loren]

Before you alter a nice car, consider my post on "Installing an R 10 Overdrive Transmission".

I'd be doing you a disservice not to mention it.

My 49 is a daily driver which means I can't have it laid up for long periods of time.

The Plymouth R 10 Automatic Overdrive is a factory engineered bolt in, so you aren't re-inventing the wheel.

Other than the cable pull handle (which is only to block its operation for reasons such as a push start. Ordinarily you never touch it) or looking under the car it is undetectable and reversible, no cutting.

 

You can not describe the work required to install a T5 in a short post like you can an R 10.

 

I have a T5 from an S10 in my Model A Ford (installed by the previous owner) I absolutely hate the damn thing. It's coming out and a 1939 V8 transmission is going in. You know they are bad when an owner thinks a 3 speed is an improvement over a 5 speed! The main reason is the incredibly poor choice of gear ratios in the S10 box.

The only desirable feature of the T5 is the overdrive 5th gear. An R10 gives you that Automatically. All you have to do is lift your foot from the accelerator and it shifts. When you want to down shift, you press the accelerator down to the stop. An added plus is that you don't have to use the clutch anywhere near as much as in a T5.

My intention is only to offer a viable alternative you might not know about. The R10 while not that common for the Plymouth was used by 11 different makes of cars and trucks. Of those I personally feel the Plymouth benefitted most from them. Parts are widely available in original and reproduction. The R10 was introduced for the Plymouth in May of 1952, at a time when automatic transmissions held the public's interest. People bought Fords and Chevys because you could get automatics in them. So before rushing head long into a big engineering project, consider the R10...it works!

[terryracing86]

Loren thanks I am looking into that option as well and may be my cheapest route to go. 

[allbizz49]

T5 can be done for under 1,000 bucks easy. Last R10 I saw for sale was 1800.  Nothing wrong with the T5. I had one behind my 59 Studebaker too. I'm putting my Desoto hemi and 4 speed in my 49 and sold the T5 with adapter for 500 bucks. Deals are out there. Just make sure you get the S10 T5 for better shifter location. I believe first gear is different between the v6 and 4 cyl models too. It all depends on how you are going to use your car. I drive a lot and long distance and the T5 just made sense, especially for the cost. If you are just putting around town, keep the 3 speed. Now that I have another stock Plymouth, i am hot rodding my 49. No need to have two stockers. Otherwise, I would have kept the T5. 

[Bobb Horn]

I installed a TK5 Ford Ranger trans into my 38 several years ago.     Not too difficult project.    Used the Ford disc, Plymouth pressure plate.    No adapter needed.    The TK5 is the 1983 to 1987 Toyo Kogyo trans.      Has worked nice with the 95 Ranger 3.7 rear, but would be better with my Jeep 3.5 rear.    My mpg doubled with this setup.

[Bobb Horn]

I made up an adapter on the Plymouth 3.9 rear, and a shortened  Ford driveshaft just see how the setup would.    worked good, but was sure some granny gears there.      The picture before was my mock up, of the setup behind my 56 Dodge engine.

[terryracing86]

1 hour ago, Bobb Horn said:

I made up an adapter on the Plymouth 3.9 rear, and a shortened  Ford driveshaft just see how the setup would.    worked good, but was sure some granny gears there.      The picture before was my mock up, of the setup behind my 56 Dodge engine.

That’s what I was wanting to do but finding a ranger trans around me here has been impossible and that’s the reason I’m looking for other options. Thanks 

[Sniper]

I know there is an already made, bolt on adapter that will let you run a U joint in the rear, but danged if I can find the post, it's here somewhere.

 

Found it,

 

[Andydodge]

The main reason I was going with the T5 or would also consider any of the other late model overdrive trans is that they are a completely self contained unit........no extra solenoids, wiring etc and are a much cheaper and just a more modern alternative...........yeh, a nice original mopar overdrive might be fine IF you have one but for those of us who do not have access to these gearboxes now the T5 and others of their ilk are great alternatives and whilst installing them may require some extra work they do work well...........my Oz 2 cents worth.............Andy Douglas

[Bryan G]

My opinion, worth little: that old overdrive, to me, is a lot more fun than rowing a 5 speed. Something about lifting that foot and having it shift...

[allbizz49]

T5, R10, doesn't matter. Do what you want to your car and enjoy driving it. It really only boils down to time, money and what you will do with the car. If you are going to putt around town, do parades and take it to local Thursday night car shows, keep the 3 speed. If you actually drive it, year round and drive on the freeway, chuck a T5 in it and be done with it.

[Loren]

It’s just my humble opinion but if your car is 1939 or earlier (meaning a floor shift) a modern transmission is a viable option.

However, choose wisely grasshopper!

The S10 T5 has the right shifter location but awful ratios. (They could have dropped one or two gears keeping an overdrive top gear)

If I had such a car I’d be looking for a 1972 Volvo 164 4 speed with the Laycock-De Normanville Overdrive. It’s not automatic like the Borg Warner but the transmission is great with good ratios and very refined. Much smaller in size widthwise so it would be easier to fit. But since I don’t have one, it’s easy to have an opinion.

 

Plymouth Overdrives are fairly priced between $1000 and 1200. When I got my Plymouth Bulletin this week I spied an ad for one with lots of additional parts for a reasonable $1200. The big cost is the shipping which the seller and I are working out. I’ve learned to jump on parts when they come available. You’ve just got to keep looking and you have to ask.

[Bobb Horn]

I was considering a T5 mid 80s S10 thanks to all the information Don Coatney put on here how to do it.     I found a TK5 mid 80 Ranger at the same time and after a little research decided to try it.    So for $50, for one, and $75 for the second as a back up, it worked.    No adapter, just mill either the 5 inch hole in the bell or mill the aluminum trans front cover to fit the 5 inch hole, easy.   Floor shift, just bend a little and add another few inchs since I have a bench seat, no cost.      Driveshaft,  after some research and experimenting with making my own, I found 3 driveshafts for about $10 each, two fit very good.  I had two Ranger rears at no cost, one with a 3.2 gear, and one with the 3.7, one too high gear, and a little too high, but works good.   If one is working on a budget, or just wants a challenge, study the TK5.      After 10 years of of using the TK5, very glad I did......

[Bobb Horn]

22 hours ago, terryracing86 said:

That’s what I was wanting to do but finding a ranger trans around me here has been impossible and that’s the reason I’m looking for other options. Thanks 

Wow, amazing.      The TK5s are from 1983 to 1987 Rangers.    I found a third trans for free, and gave that to a Plymouth friend.   The Rangers had a 4 speed version also, just no 5th gear......

[terryracing86]

7 hours ago, Loren said:

It’s just my humble opinion but if your car is 1939 or earlier (meaning a floor shift) a modern transmission is a viable option.

However, choose wisely grasshopper!

The S10 T5 has the right shifter location but awful ratios. (They could have dropped one or two gears keeping an overdrive top gear)

If I had such a car I’d be looking for a 1972 Volvo 164 4 speed with the Laycock-De Normanville Overdrive. It’s not automatic like the Borg Warner but the transmission is great with good ratios and very refined. Much smaller in size widthwise so it would be easier to fit. But since I don’t have one, it’s easy to have an opinion.

 

Plymouth Overdrives are fairly priced between $1000 and 1200. When I got my Plymouth Bulletin this week I spied an ad for one with lots of additional parts for a reasonable $1200. The big cost is the shipping which the seller and I are working out. I’ve learned to jump on parts when they come available. You’ve just got to keep looking and you have to ask.

So this kit looks like what I need since I cannot seem to find a t5 or ranger 5spd anywhere close to me ?‍♂️

[allbizz49]

That kit plus an 1800 dollar transmission. You'll be golden. 

[terryracing86]

4 minutes ago, allbizz49 said:

That kit plus an 1800 dollar transmission. You'll be golden. 

I was assuming this was just an add on kit to the original 3spd trans? 

[Sniper]

A link to the kit rather than a screen shot would be more useful.

 

I think this is the kit you are looking at  https://vintageautogarage.com/borg-warner-r10-r11-overdrive-12-volt-complete-kit/

 

If it is, then no it's not a complete OD setup, it's just the electrics designed for 12v for the most part, other than the cable and manual.  You still need the R10 trans.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Sniper

[Loren]

As far as suppliers go I’d like to throw one more into the mix

Van Pelt V8 transmissions sells the same items for about $200 less.

On their order form there’s a box that asks what transmission the parts are for. I put in 49 Plymouth.

I got the parts shipped to me without comment.

Why?

Because they fit.

 

The Overdrives do not cost $1800. On eBay there is one guy who offers one for that much...but only because after months of offering it at $2100 he lowered the price. He watched as 6 other guys sold their’s for around a thousand.

 

Considering how much work is involved with installing a 5 speed, it’s my humble opinion your time and labor are worth something. So can you bolt in a 5 speed in a morning? I don’t think so.

In my 3 passenger Business Coupe a 5 speed would turn it into a two passenger coupe. I am loathe to do that.

And another thing, (this a question I don’t know the answer to) what is the Overdrive ratio in the various 5 speeds?

The Plymouth Overdrive offers a 30% reduction in engine rpm. Are they better than that?

Will installing a 5 speed increase a cars collectability?

I am thinking that a Plymouth Overdrive does.

 

[allbizz49]

We're all glad for you that your R10 worked out, but like you said, it's your opinion that it's the best option. My 49 is getting a 291 hemi and a 4 speed. In my opinion, that is the best swap. I think the original poster is on a budget and doesn't have a lot of available parts. I say he does what works for him and his car. The R10 T5 argument doesn't matter if he wants something different. Also, yeah, a T5 can be swapped or any other tranny in a morning if you have the parts. I don't get the hate towards the T5. It's not the best but it's not the worst either. I've been building cars professionally for over 25 years. One thing I learned very soon in my career is that everbody wants something different. Another thing I came to realize is that restoring is boring. Putting everything back to stock isn't for everyone. definitely not me. Nothing wrong with a nice stock example, just has never been fun for me. Once again, my opinion.

[James_Douglas]

The thing about the BW overdrives that one buys is often MANY of the parts in them are out of specification. As many know, I purchased one from a well know supplier and a number of critical parts were beyond the BW specification wear limits. I had to eat the so-called re-manufactured unit and rebuild it myself.

 

The most important one is the balking ring and gear.

 

I would try to find a unit at the lowest price I could and rebuild it myself. In the end one is better off. Once done with proper lubrication it will live for decades.

 

James

[Bobb Horn]

On 7/24/2021 at 12:25 AM, Loren said:

 

 

Considering how much work is involved with installing a 5 speed, it’s my humble opinion your time and labor are worth something. So can you bolt in a 5 speed in a morning? I don’t think so.

In my 3 passenger Business Coupe a 5 speed would turn it into a two passenger coupe. I am loathe to do that.

And another thing, (this a question I don’t know the answer to) what is the Overdrive ratio in the various 5 speeds?

The Plymouth Overdrive offers a 30% reduction in engine rpm. Are they better than that?

Will installing a 5 speed increase a cars collectability?

I am thinking that a Plymouth Overdrive does.

 

 

I would have to agree, it would take me more than a morning to bolt in a 5 speed.      The T5s are plentyful, and not expensive, and with a little research, or just ask on here, one will find there are a great number of different ratios available.      The T5s do require, in most cases, an adapter plate, and a little welding, but doable.     Myself working on a budget, not because I need to, but because  I wanted something no one else has done before, that I could find, desided to try the TK5, no adapter, and only a small amount of changing.    After going through three 3 speeds going bad, I did the TK5.   The TK5 Ranger trans and parts are easy to find in most areas and not expensive.     I paid less than $100 for each trans, and $25 for the mill work on one.    I, as many others, do not worry about "collectability", only that we enjoy what we do with what we have.

[Sniper]

In another thread I started I had a table of trans gear ratios compared to stock.  I updated it to add the S10 T5 and the Ford TK5 ratios.  They both are horrible, imo.  The non world class 83-84 mustang T5 is closer to stock.

 

 

 

trans gear ratios.xlsx

Edited July 28, 2021 by Sniper