Sniper Posted January 30, 2021 Report Posted January 30, 2021 27 minutes ago, greg g said: I didn't write the Dyno setup procedure and obviously they differ between various Dyno makers. Just reflecting what my experience was. The difference between weather forecasts between local tv channels one uses one type of modeling one uses another and they end up slightly different. Measuring hp at the drive wheels isnt a measurement of engine hp, it's a measurement of how much used, taking into account any losses on the through put. This Dyno had a factor they thinks is important. Ok, I think you meant to ask about the environmental correction factors. Which, theoretically, will correct the measurements to a standard temp, humidity and altitude hopefully making reading taken on different days or different locations relevant to each other. Which really only works if it's the same dyno used. Which is another story. As for driveline losses, I've seen 20% as a standard factor. Which I think is a very big rule of thumb. I know for a fact that a Dana 60 and a Ford 9" consume different amounts of HP, seen the dyno charts on that. A know a lockup torque converter loses less than one that isn't, or doesn't, lock up. I haven't seen any data on HP losses thru the various manual transmissions. I think that 20% is more guess work than science though. It might be accurate on one setup, but not all. Anyway, all HP comes from the engine, so what's measured at the wheel is the engine HP minus driveline losses. That's the 20% mentioned, give or take. So if you read 80 hp at the wheel, then using the generic 20% loss correction you get 100hp at the crank. I used to be a calibration tech in the service and we used a standard to calibrate things. This way you knew that if one meter read 100v the other meter would read the same if it was calibrated to the standard. Then the standard I used on the ship was calibrated by a more precise standard ashore, which could be traced back to the penultimate standard used by NIST. I don't believe dynos get into that detail so numbers vary, sometimes wildly. This assumes that the purchaser even calibrates it once bought. Those mobile chassis dynos need to be cal'd after each move. A quick video on engine dyno calibration, seems easy to do though. I guess if you used the same arm and weights on different dynos they'd be close enough to each other to be relevant. But the earlier comments about Dyno Jet numbers differing make me wonder. https://powertestdyno.com/calibrate-torque-on-45x-engine-dyno/ Chassis dyno cals, similar method but more involved. https://powertestdyno.com/chassis-dyno-torque-calibration/ 2 Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 30, 2021 Report Posted January 30, 2021 There are some good air density calculators online https://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_da.htm The corrected altitude fluctuations at Bonneville can be massive, from as low as 4800' to over well over 7000'. It's so important in fact, that they are printed on your timing slip. It's not unusual to change carburetor jets two or three sizes depending on what time of day you run. Quote
Sniper Posted January 30, 2021 Report Posted January 30, 2021 22 minutes ago, MoparMontana said: It's not unusual to change carburetor jets two or three sizes depending on what time of day you run. One reason I am going with FI on my 230 build. Automatic atmospheric density adjustments, automatic temperature adjustments, automatic timing adjustments, compensation for varying ethanol concentrations. That and to just do it. Don't see too many dual TBI setups on a Mopar flathead. haven't had an update recently because the EFI setup is at the wire it up, fire it up stage. So it's waiting on the 230 build. I suppose I could put it on the 218 but then I'd need to plumb the surge tank and such, which will be easier with no engine in there. Then I need to do the dual exhaust and O2 setup. The list is endless, the time and money not so much. Link http://www.yourolddad.com/efi-mechanical Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 30, 2021 Report Posted January 30, 2021 Wow! Impressive work. I have a Holley Sniper EFI on my DeSoto. I was never happy with the carburetion with the blow-through supercharger, especially since the old McCulloch is a VS (variable speed) that adjusts boost with load (via a vacuum switch). EFI is the the hot ticket. Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 30, 2021 Report Posted January 30, 2021 I had to look into the wayback files, but I finally found the photos of when we sawed up Earl's Gen I (pre-2017) EDGY heads to make improvements to the patterns for my Gen II (post 2018) EDGY heads. I will post some close-ups of the issues we found, and what we did to correct them at a later date. Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 30, 2021 Report Posted January 30, 2021 So, this is (was) a well used Gen I EDGY head that we sawed up back in 2018. 1. The red box shows that the cylinder #1 got pretty hot at some point. We determined that this was due to coolant stagnation at the front of the head. We addressed this by eliminating the "dams" (green boxes) on "my" EDGY pattern. 2. The yellow square is to draw attention to the abrupt radius from the floor to the combustion chamber. The engineer at the foundry was concerned about this, so significantly increased all internal radii. 3. You can see by the softness of the aluminum that this head was also not properly heat treated. All of my Gen II EDGY heads produced have these modifications. 2 Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 30, 2021 Report Posted January 30, 2021 This was the first test casting of my Gen II EDGYs. As you can see, the quality of the raw casting is very nice, and allows us to have very consistent as-cast combustion chambers that don't require any additional machining to equalize. My foundry tells me that this is due to a proprietary process that they use. The use of pure ingot A-357 (no recycled material) makes for a VERY dense casting with no porosity. Earl had a reject rate of 25% with his foundry. We had only two rejects in my last batch of twenty-five heads. 1 Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 30, 2021 Report Posted January 30, 2021 A few more photos of a sawed up Gen I EDGY (pre-2007). These are just a few more of the many changes that I made on my Gen II EDGY pattern. An earlier poster mentioned that they didn't think there was adequate material for the temp sender. I disagree, as even this Gen I head with core shift shows. I have never heard a single complaint about any issue here. Once the sender adapter is installed, it will probably never be removed anyway. It's a pipe thread. Use a Teflon sealant and don't overtighten it. It's really that simple. 1 Quote
Sniper Posted January 30, 2021 Report Posted January 30, 2021 (edited) Since you are here and you are the expert on the Edgy head. I need to mount an additional temperature sending unit for the EFI computer. It needs a 3/8" - 18 NPTF hole and I was thinking by the water outlet. Any suggestions? Edited January 30, 2021 by Sniper sensor dimensions added Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 31, 2021 Report Posted January 31, 2021 4 hours ago, Sniper said: Since you are here and you are the expert on the Edgy head. I need to mount an additional temperature sending unit for the EFI computer. It needs a 3/8" - 18 NPTF hole and I was thinking by the water outlet. Any suggestions? As far as I know from my EFI swaps, it doesn't really matter where you place it in the head. It's just telling the ECU that it needs to enrichen the mixture below your set point, usually between 140 and 160, like a choke on a carb. Quote
Sniper Posted January 31, 2021 Report Posted January 31, 2021 I guess the question ought to have been, where should I not put it so as to not damage something I ought not to. Don;t want to drill a hole in a combustion chamber or something. Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 31, 2021 Report Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) Ahhh, got it. Here you go. You can see exactly where stuff is and isn't. Also, look very closely at the exterior of the head for slight discolorations. That where the welds (red boxes) are to fill the core support holes. Anywhere else (green boxes) is fine. Place it at the same height as the existing H20 sensor. Edited January 31, 2021 by MoparMontana typo 1 Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 31, 2021 Report Posted January 31, 2021 On 12/27/2020 at 1:46 PM, Loren said: The 25 inch Edgy head I have may sit on the shelf for a while. When you look inside the water passage there are all sorts of "divots" and craters which worry me. The sides where the pipe threads are for the temp gauge and the heater outlet are scary thin. Loren, If you are not happy with your 25" head, you can return it and I will refund your money. The 25" pattern does not have the considerable improvements that I made to the 23" pattern. That being said, I would not be the slightest bit concerned about the points you made regarding the head. The "divots" are not porosity. They are simply from the sand core. There is also plenty of material to support the adapter that the temp sensor screws into. Just make sure you use a Teflon thread sealant and don't overtighten it. Again, if you are not pleased, just let me know at moparmontana@gmail.com Quote
Loren Posted January 31, 2021 Report Posted January 31, 2021 9 hours ago, MoparMontana said: Loren, If you are not happy with your 25" head, you can return it and I will refund your money. The 25" pattern does not have the considerable improvements that I made to the 23" pattern. That being said, I would not be the slightest bit concerned about the points you made regarding the head. The "divots" are not porosity. They are simply from the sand core. There is also plenty of material to support the adapter that the temp sensor screws into. Just make sure you use a Teflon thread sealant and don't overtighten it. Again, if you are not pleased, just let me know at moparmontana@gmail.com Hi Pete, There is no chance that you could pry my fingers from that head! It was the last one you sold. Years ago (when I was a child actually) a fellow by the name of Joe Gemsa started making Ford Model A & B overhead valve cylinder heads. He was an old racer and he took everything he had learned and put it into those heads. However the reception he got was unexpected. It seems the other old timers were offended that he was "reproducing" heads that anyone could buy when the antiques were so precious. They felt he had "cheapened" the hobby and the purists were the unkindest of all. It got so bad that he would only sell a head if he knew the guy and liked him or one of his friends gave him an endorsement. Now half a century later a Gemsa head is more precious than a Crager or a Riley (both of which are now being reproduced). So no I will not send it back, wether or not I use it doesn't matter. I figure it's a long term investment. I do hope you find my thinking on the matter amusing. I am running into trouble on my 265 project in that I don't have a suitable intake manifold yet. I saw your collection of manifolds which I think is pretty damn impressive! I'd like to be one of your first customers for your new ones. My prefered carburetor would be the 2 barrel Bendix-Stromberg WW. It has the 4 bolt rectangular pattern. I enjoyed the video of your car at "Elmer's Garage" that's a perspective I've never seen before. I am usually looking out the front windshield. My Dad liked to race at El Mirage and Muroc. The late Tom Beatty gave me the secret to running faster in the afternoon, so I always let my Dad go first then baffled him by going faster on the next run. Of course I told him it was all "Driver technique". lol Quote
NickPickToo Posted January 31, 2021 Report Posted January 31, 2021 On 1/28/2021 at 7:48 PM, MoparMontana said: Hi there, I seldom look at forums, but it's been raining non-stop for three days, so am doing a bit of couch and internet surfing. I am the guy that is currently casting "EDGY" heads. OMG -- so glad it's been raining so hard. I cant believe all this info on this tread. Almost got my dad to go over budget and get me one of your 23" heads for my project, but they were gone before I could wear him down. Right now I'm just in the "get it done and out of my mom's parking bay before leaving for college" phase, but I plan on tweaking my engine for years to come. Dad's said one of his dream project would be one of your LS conversions. We'd also like to electrify a business coupe. Perhaps someday. Thank you again for joining in on our forum. The experience out hear is amazing. Many have outlasted their expiration dates by a bit ?. 1 Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 31, 2021 Report Posted January 31, 2021 3 hours ago, NickPickToo said: Almost got my dad to go over budget and get me one of your 23" heads for my project, but they were gone before I could wear him down. I may have a few more twenty-three's available in a couple of months. I had a couple of pre-orders who have gone MIA now that I have requested payment. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt, but will cancel their order and put the heads on my site if I don't get payment in a month or so. www.moparmontana.com Fear not, my entirely new Gen III heads will be available in early 2022. 2 Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 31, 2021 Report Posted January 31, 2021 5 hours ago, Loren said: I am running into trouble on my 265 project in that I don't have a suitable intake manifold yet. I saw your collection of manifolds which I think is pretty damn impressive! I'd like to be one of your first customers for your new ones. My prefered carburetor would be the 2 barrel Bendix-Stromberg WW. It has the 4 bolt rectangular pattern. I enjoyed the video of your car at "Elmer's Garage" that's a perspective I've never seen before. I am usually looking out the front windshield. My Dad liked to race at El Mirage and Muroc. The late Tom Beatty gave me the secret to running faster in the afternoon, so I always let my Dad go first then baffled him by going faster on the next run. Of course I told him it was all "Driver technique". lol I have never seen a 25" intake with the 4-bolt pattern. I reckon there is an adapter available, or they could be easily fabricated. I sold most of my duplicates several weeks ago, but I may have one or two that I'd part with. Yes, ElMo is the best. It's one of the reasons that I moved from Montana to California. See you in May. Quote
NickPickToo Posted February 1, 2021 Report Posted February 1, 2021 8 hours ago, MoparMontana said: I may have a few more twenty-three's available in a couple of months. I had a couple of pre-orders who have gone MIA now that I have requested payment. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt, but will cancel their order and put the heads on my site if I don't get payment in a month or so. www.moparmontana.com Fear not, my entirely new Gen III heads will be available in early 2022. I'll check often and start priming priming my parents, I mean saving my paychecks. Quote
Sniper Posted February 1, 2021 Report Posted February 1, 2021 BTW, thanks MoparMontana for the help with my temp sender question. 1 Quote
MoparMontana Posted February 2, 2021 Report Posted February 2, 2021 (edited) Here is the latest blog from the EDGY page http://www.moparmontana.com/whats-new/winter-2021-update Edited February 2, 2021 by MoparMontana 2 Quote
HotRodTractor Posted February 2, 2021 Report Posted February 2, 2021 (edited) 31 minutes ago, MoparMontana said: Here is the latest blog from the EDGY page http://www.moparmontana.com/whats-new/winter-2021-update I love the post and the search for good data. Its fantastic. However - you no longer need to make actual castings to test out ideas and designs on the flow bench. Additive manufacturing can cut huge costs and chunks of time out of that development cycle. Design it, print it, test it. Modify. Rinse and repeat. Then make your foundry tooling and only have to worry about tweaks and changes that might need to take place to cast good parts. On Edit: Its also very possible and cost effective to direct print 3D sand molds today to also help cut costs until its time to make production tooling. Edited February 2, 2021 by HotRodTractor Quote
Sniper Posted February 2, 2021 Report Posted February 2, 2021 Love the blog post. To many times you hear tribal knowledge passed on as if gospel without knowing where or why the thing is passed on. What might work in one application is by no means a guarantee it'll work on another. Especially when comparing different OEM's. One thing I think is a real cork in the Mopar flat six making power is that three trunk of a guide sticking up on the ports. I have seen The Freewheeling Tony Smith cut them down to the port floor, any plans to do that on your package? Or testing to see if it matters? Quote
Hzman78 Posted February 5, 2021 Report Posted February 5, 2021 hi, i am a newby to these forums but just thought i would add that is it great to hear new products are in the pipeline. I for one would love to eventually get my hands on a gen 3 head (if the price is right), a nice cam and then ideally put a holley sniper efi setup on it. I think the efi would be great if you could get equal fuel to all ports... so needs a well thought out manifold. Glad to see some comments from a reputable manufacturer on this forum, i look forward to your products becoming available. Quote
50PlymP-20 Posted February 8, 2021 Report Posted February 8, 2021 I was just looking at the Holley Sniper EFI to use on my 218...stock intake manifold. Don't mean to change the intent of this thread...but lots of questions. I've looked for other thread...but didn't see any. Suggestions? The reason for looking at EFI is that I live in CO and when cruising around the area, the altitude changes are +/- 2,000 ft. Quote
MoparMontana Posted February 8, 2021 Report Posted February 8, 2021 2 hours ago, jmccann704 said: I was just looking at the Holley Sniper EFI to use on my 218...stock intake manifold. Don't mean to change the intent of this thread...but lots of questions. I've looked for other thread...but didn't see any. Suggestions? The reason for looking at EFI is that I live in CO and when cruising around the area, the altitude changes are +/- 2,000 ft. Feel free to shoot me an email. I have a Holley Sniper 2300 on the six in my DeSoto and a 4150 dual quad on the the hemi in my '67 GTX. Happy to help. moparmontana@gmail.com Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.