Valve Guides - info - caution - tale of woe

[kencombs]

I'm working (slowly) on prepping a '56 Plymouth 230 for my '54 pickup.

 

Not a full engine rebuild, more an overhaul.  Block was bored .040 and crank turned .010 sometime in the past.  Bores and journals still very useable. 

 

On to the valves.  All valves regrindable (is that a word?), intake guides OK.  exhaust worn.  Order a set of Sealed Power  VG419 guides.  Got them installed but overdrove one.  In the process of correcting that, I broke the counterbored end.  I hadn't seen singles of those available so, I ordered one guide from one of the old Mopar parts vendors.  Cost almost as much as the full set of SP guides!

 

When I got it I discovered that there was no counterbore, either end.  Oh well I can do that.  Put it in, right height this time.  Then I discovered it was not finish bored like the SP VG419s.  Background, during my search originally I found that SP had two PN's for our guides.  VG419, VG420 for exh and intake.  Externally the same but the bore was increased .0015 on the exhaust, so no reaming required.

.

 

When I reordered, I forgot all that.  Now, it required me to buy a reamer.  Or, let me search for a single SP guide.  Found them at Rock Auto.  Ordered one.  Less that a third of the old Mopar vendor's shipped price. 

 

Lessons I learned:  Don't be so ham handed with my hammer.  Look longer before clicking on the buy button.  Be sure to check Rock Auto first.

Edited November 21, 2019 by kencombs

[Loren]

Parts prices really do vary wildly!

Check eBay. Everybody sells water pumps and oil pumps. I've seen prices for the very same part vary 300% on the same eBay page!

Conclusion? Buyer seriously beware!

You'd be surprised how many parts can be had at the chain stores like NAPA or O'Reilly and some are not only cheaper but of more modern design (seals in particular).

 

[James_Douglas]

Does not Egge have then for like $2 or $3 each?

[kencombs]

1 hour ago, James_Douglas said:

Does not Egge have then for like $2 or $3 each?

Yep, about the same price as RA.  Didn't even think of Egge.  After you posted I took a look.  Interesting enough, Egge only shows one PN for both int and exh also.  But, the listed ID is for an exhaust.

 

thanks for reminding me to include Egge in  future searches.

[Dodgeb4ya]

I just replaced a new Gates WP...

Didn't last 300 miles..The bearing started making noise.I put another Chinese pump on the Plymouth.

Hope this import pump lasts 1000 miles. One came from O'Reilly's...one from Napa.

[TodFitch]

20 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

I just replaced a new Gates WP...

Didn't last 300 miles..The bearing started making noise.I put another Chinese pump on the Plymouth.

Hope this import pump lasts 1000 miles. One came from O'Reilly's...one from Napa.

 

Don't know if the new ones have sealed ball bearings or not. On the original style pump with bushings I had no end of trouble with them wearing out quite quickly. I finally figured out I was setting the belt tension way too tight. On my car the weight of the generator is just about right for setting the tension, just tighten the adjustments after letting the generator set the tension by its weight. That is tight enough that I haven't noticed any slippage at either the generator or water pump and the pump goes many, many more miles before having an issue.

 

I suppose that if the new pumps have roller bearings they'd be able to handle side load better. But while the inside of my pump is the same as all the later ones the housing for '33 and '34 is different so a newly manufactured pump is not an option for me. I just have two housings that I get rebuilt, one on the car the other on the shelf ready for use.

[Dodgeb4ya]

The new pumps have the typical modern type sleeved sealed bearing and shaft that is not serviceable. I pressed this new failed pump apart to see what type of bearings were in it..

Though these modern WP bearing and shaft assemblies should withstand high side loads I have no reason as to why the pump started to fail (make noise).

I have installed hundreds of water pumps in my line of work over the years. I no  not to tighten the Gen too tight.

I did learn to use mostly OEM factory water pumps.

[kencombs]

1 hour ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

The new pumps have the typical modern type sleeved sealed bearing and shaft that is not serviceable. I pressed this new failed pump apart to see what type of bearings were in it..

Though these modern WP bearing and shaft assemblies should withstand high side loads I have no reason as to why the pump started to fail (make noise).

I have installed hundreds of water pumps in my line of work over the years. I no  not to tighten the Gen too tight.

I did learn to use mostly OEM factory water pumps.

 

 

There are many levels of precision available with ball and roller bearings.  Standards that the middlemen ordering hundreds or thousands of units can and should specify.   Unfortunately the aftermarket doesn't always specify the same as the original car maker.  And, some just specify price, performance is secondary.  Wrong material, improper internal fit, wrong type or amount of lube, any of those will cause early failure.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Replacement parts for the old car market don't get placed high in the quality department.?

[James_Douglas]

There is a family run pump repair place called Arms Pumps. They are in Tracy, CA. There across the bay from San Francisco for generations and moved to the valley a few years ago.

 

The old man, now dead I think, was into Dodge Trucks. He had a brass impeller cased that had a higher flow than the typical designs. They use high quality Swiss bearings and shafts and rebuilt the MOPAR pimps.  Not cheap like double or triple one you can get at NAPA. But, if one wants a high quality pump. You can go to them.

 

I happen to have the MOPAR tool for rebuilding a pump. I buy the old kits off of ebay and have a couple on the shelf. As long as I use the correct water pump grease they are fine. The one thing about the old design is that they don't fail out instantly like some of the new ones can. They just start to weep...

 

James