51 B3B build thread - after all these years

[bkahler]

13 hours ago, JBNeal said:

Lookin' good...the more the truck goes together, the bigger the shop seems to get, amiright? ?

 

At least up until now I've only been installing small parts so there is still no extra room in the shop!  Hopefully once the fenders, doors, etc. start getting installed then I might see an increase in floor space

 

13 hours ago, JBNeal said:

I have a write-up pending on the two different electric wiper motor setups for the B-series as I've got a few that I've been restoring and ran into a similar switch issue. 

 

You need to start paying less attention to those blondes and brunettes and more attention to your hobby.....?

 

 

13 hours ago, JBNeal said:

 

I had cleaned that switch and done a few hours of cycle testing then put that setup aside for a few weeks, then tried to run it again to compare operation temperatures with another setup that I had completed, and ran into issues with both switches. 

 

I only glanced at the switch when I was cleaning and painting the motor but from what I remember it seemed to be an interesting looking switch.  I'll be removing the motor and switch sometime this weekend to take look see.  

 

Know of any sources for replacement switches?

 

 

13 hours ago, JBNeal said:

 

I haven't worked on them for a few weeks as I've been drafted by several elderly neighbors to clear February winter damaged trees and shrubs that are starting to fall over, reviving a 40yr old International 384 that has been neglected for years, and dealing with the brakes and power steering pump on the QuadCab.  That is all coming to a conclusion so I can get back on that in a few days...in the meantime,  have ya tried yelling at it?

 

Over the years I've found that yelling at something generally has no affect on the overall outcome other than relieving a little bit of stress in me

 

 

 

[bkahler]

Last night I started doing some parts research to find the part numbers for the wiper switch on the dash and the wiper motor.  The motor is an Auto-lite EWJ-4006 (mopar 1272-340) and the dash switch is a Cole Hersee 7508 2-speed wiper switch (mopar 898-571).  There is also a switch on the motor itself, Mopar 1262-366.

 

I couldn't find anyone selling a NOS motor but I did manage to find a NOS dash switch and NOS motor switch.  I should receive them sometime next week.   I'll use the instructions in the service manual to test the motor and my existing switch but it's always nice to have NOS parts on hand

 

 

[JBNeal]

When I was working on this during the summer, I could not find either of these switches available.  The rotary switch has an 8 amp thermal breaker on it with cardboard insulation...not a robust design, as that cardboard usually falls off, and the exposed contacts easily get dirty.  I carefully cleaned one switch's circuit and breaker contacts, which brought it back to life much like the headlight and panel switches.

 

A preview of my write-up is that I have found a few issues on these wiper motors that need to be addressed and possible solutions that I tried.  Wires inside the can may ground because of deteriorating insulation, and the park switch circuit can be a problem because of dirty contacts.  Another item I scored at the Big Spring Auction is an original C-series shop manual, and it has a very detailed diagnosis and maintenance section on the wiper motors.  I have not verified part numbers, but the C-series wiper setup looks very similar to the B-3 / B-4 wiper motors, so I'm guessing that the only difference might be the linkage geometry.

 

One thing I did was lightly sand then clean the commutator, and tried to clean the brushes but didn't want to get carried away and have them crumble from all of the elbow grease.  This, plus repairing wiring and cleaning switch contacts, makes a big difference in the electric motor performance.

[bkahler]

On 12/3/2021 at 12:49 AM, JBNeal said:

When I was working on this during the summer, I could not find either of these switches available.  The rotary switch has an 8 amp thermal breaker on it with cardboard insulation...not a robust design, as that cardboard usually falls off, and the exposed contacts easily get dirty.  I carefully cleaned one switch's circuit and breaker contacts, which brought it back to life much like the headlight and panel switches.

 

The new switch arrived a few days ago and it's identical to the original from the truck.  I started to check the connections between the various switch contacts at which point my multimeter died so I had to order another one which arrived today.  So this evening or this weekend I hope to compare the new switch to the old switch to see if there are any differences between the two switches.

 

 

Quote

A preview of my write-up is that I have found a few issues on these wiper motors that need to be addressed and possible solutions that I tried.  Wires inside the can may ground because of deteriorating insulation, and the park switch circuit can be a problem because of dirty contacts.  Another item I scored at the Big Spring Auction is an original C-series shop manual, and it has a very detailed diagnosis and maintenance section on the wiper motors.  I have not verified part numbers, but the C-series wiper setup looks very similar to the B-3 / B-4 wiper motors, so I'm guessing that the only difference might be the linkage geometry.

 

When I had the motor apart last year everything inside looked good.  I did a quick test back at that time using a 12 volt battery and the motor seemed to run fine.  I don't believe I ran it long enough (seconds?) to do any damage to the motor.  I have a spare motor I need to dig out of whatever crevice it's hiding in and compare it to my original motor.  Maybe that will give me some insight as well.

 

 

Quote

One thing I did was lightly sand then clean the commutator, and tried to clean the brushes but didn't want to get carried away and have them crumble from all of the elbow grease.  This, plus repairing wiring and cleaning switch contacts, makes a big difference in the electric motor performance.

 

I stayed away from this option but will consider it if all else fails.

 

Bottom line is I should have something to report this weekend.

 

Thanks!

 

Brad

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by bkahler

[bkahler]

More progress on the truck the past week or so.  Today I finished rebuilding the generator and it's sitting in place on the engine although I still need to find the correct mounting hardware to finish it off.  I'm a little surprised how far it tilts away from the engine block with the current v-belt.  I've been looking at various pictures that I have of other trucks and it seems that many trucks are set up this way although there were a few with shorter belts.  I might try buying a slightly shorter belt to see how it looks.

 

 

 

Also a friend of mine is working on cleaning and polishing all of the sheet metal.  All of the body parts were painted back in 2000 and were subsequently moved from Lincoln to Dallas to Little Rock and finally to Richmond.  Needless to say over they years the parts have collected a lot of dust and grunge and unfortunately some nicks and scrapes.  A couple of pictures show some of what he is dealing with while trying to make them look presentable.  

 

 

 

The grille panel managed to come out looking fairly decent all things considered.  It still has some scratches that he is going to try and either buff out or possibly dab a little paint on and try to blend it in.  It will be interesting to see how well that process works.

 

 

I'm definitely getting close to trying for the first engine start.  My goal is to at least have the engine running by the end of the year.   We'll see.....

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by bkahler

[billrigsby]

3 hours ago, bkahler said:

Today I finished rebuilding the generator and it's sitting in place on the engine although I still need to find the correct mounting hardware to finish it off.  I'm a little surprised how far it tilts away from the engine block with the current v-belt.  I've been looking at various pictures that I have of other trucks and it seems that many trucks are set up this way although there were a few with shorter belts.

 

That upper adjustment mount looks excessively long I'm guessing that's what you're looking to find the correct hardware for?

 

While I'm not going to claim this is stock or original, it is what came and what I had 'bagged and tagged' for my upper adjustable mount.

 

 

This is the Napa belt I am using

 

[bkahler]

I'm fairly certain the adjusting bracket is correct.  I've got at least two dozen pictures of various trucks all with the same bracket.  I've attached a couple of those pictures and they all seem to show the same bracket.  I do have the same size v-belt as you're using so apparently Dodge just like to space t he generator away from the engine block.  Possibly for heat purposes?

 

I might get a slightly smaller v-belt just so there is a little more adjustment room available.

 

 

 

 

[JBNeal]

I took some pics of the engines in the money pit, but they mirror pics here so I'll just add my observations.

• The narrow belt configuration uses the thinner generator adjusting bracket, with the wider belt configuration using the thicker generator adjusting bracket
• The narrow belts used on '51 and later flatheads are a different length than the wide belts prior to '51, as the pulleys changed a bit
• The air gap between the engine block and the generator body is +/- 2"
• The location or clocking of the generator adjusting bolt varies depending on the generator, so the air gap can be maintained among different generators but the location on the adjusting bracket can vary

I recall seeing in a few service stations in my youth a contraption that was used to measure the length of a V-belt, and was told that the wall of belts at the service station was separated by belt size and length, so that a mechanic could swap out a belt without looking up an application chart for the "correct" belt.  Usually there'd be some length of twine with a loop knot hanging on the same nail with the tool to estimate the belt length if it had been thrown.  So there was probably a range of V-belts that could be used on the flatheads that would work, depending on what was available.

[billrigsby]

 

Checked the crates and the parts book two of my three are like on my current engine,

one is narrow and long like yours (and broken) not sure of the applications from those 'parts' brackets.

 

Parts book shows three different part numbers, not sure what is which?

Seems to depend on the installed generator.

 

FWIW

 

[bkahler]

13 hours ago, JBNeal said:

I took some pics of the engines in the money pit, but they mirror pics here so I'll just add my observations.

• The narrow belt configuration uses the thinner generator adjusting bracket, with the wider belt configuration using the thicker generator adjusting bracket
• The narrow belts used on '51 and later flatheads are a different length than the wide belts prior to '51, as the pulleys changed a bit
• The air gap between the engine block and the generator body is +/- 2"

 

I'll have to check but I'm guessing with the current belt the gap is between 3" and 4".   I definitely need to find a shorter belt.

 

13 hours ago, JBNeal said:

• The location or clocking of the generator adjusting bolt varies depending on the generator, so the air gap can be maintained among different generators but the location on the adjusting bracket can vary

 

The generator I'm using is  12volt unit from a Jeep and it has two mounting ears on it.  I thought about using the front bearing housing from an earlier generator when I rebuilt it but in the end just decided to keep the generator as I bought it.

 

 

13 hours ago, JBNeal said:

I recall seeing in a few service stations in my youth a contraption that was used to measure the length of a V-belt, and was told that the wall of belts at the service station was separated by belt size and length, so that a mechanic could swap out a belt without looking up an application chart for the "correct" belt.  Usually there'd be some length of twine with a loop knot hanging on the same nail with the tool to estimate the belt length if it had been thrown.  So there was probably a range of V-belts that could be used on the flatheads that would work, depending on what was available.

 

Are you referring to one of these gizmos?

 

 

 

Yeah, I remember every service station used to have one of these on the bench with v-belts on pegs all around hanging from the walls.  I checked ebay for the heck of it and these things start around $70.  

 

Thanks!

 

Brad

[bkahler]

11 hours ago, billrigsby said:

 

Checked the crates and the parts book two of my three are like on my current engine,

one is narrow and long like yours (and broken) not sure of the applications from those 'parts' brackets.

 

Based on Brian's post it sounds like the broken one is for the 1/2 ton trucks.  When I was scavenging parts years ago I didn't look at too many of the larger trucks.  Most trucks I found were all 1/2 tons and sometimes 3/4 ton.  Very few 1 ton and larger.  Probably because the farmers kept the bigger trucks in service for their hauling capabilities.

 

11 hours ago, billrigsby said:

Parts book shows three different part numbers, not sure what is which?

Seems to depend on the installed generator.

 

FWIW

 

 

Looking at the generator in your picture I'm not familiar that that style.  All the ones I have and have seen have the two  electrical posts towards the back end like the one I rebuilt.  I wonder if yours's has a larger charging capacity due to being a larger truck?  

 

[JBNeal]

The generators before '51 not only have the wider pulleys but the terminal configuration is different as you've noted.  Looking at the parts manual, there are several different part numbers for generators, not only for pulley size, but for amperage rating and for low speed cut-in.

 

That V-belt Fast Finder looks very familiar, hadn't laid hands on one in the 21st century...and for those collector's prices, I'll just stick to my fuzzy memories

[bkahler]

9 hours ago, JBNeal said:

The generators before '51 not only have the wider pulleys but the terminal configuration is different as you've noted.  Looking at the parts manual, there are several different part numbers for generators, not only for pulley size, but for amperage rating and for low speed cut-in.

 

I took a peak last night at the two 6-volt generators I have up in the barn and one of them has a narrow belt pulley and the other has a wide belt pulley.  I didn't take note of the terminal locations so next time I go to the barn I'll see if what the wide belt terminal configuration is.

 

 

9 hours ago, JBNeal said:

That V-belt Fast Finder looks very familiar, hadn't laid hands on one in the 21st century...and for those collector's prices, I'll just stick to my fuzzy memories

 

Yep, fuzzy memories work just fine

 

 

[bkahler]

Tested the original wiper motor and switch this evening to see if I could figure out what was wrong.  Before testing I had to replace the newly purchased dropping resistor with another new dropping resistor.  The first one I bought ended up cracking into 3 piece.  That probably happened at about the same time I touched it and burned the crap out of of my finger tip!

 

After doing research on the subject of super hot dropping resistors I bought two because it sounded like it was just to much current draw from the motor for one resistor.  Everything seemed to point to needing two resistors in parallel for 8 amp capacity.  So this evening I finally had all the parts gathered together, hooked up to resistors in parallel and started testing.  The motor ran just fine although the voltage at the motor was close to 10 volts.  

 

I figured that was way to high so I removed one of the resistors and tested everything again.  This time the voltage at the motor was running a little over 6 volts on low speed and about 7 volts on high speed.  Much better.  Next I connected an digital ammeter in series and found that the current draw on low speed was 3.9 amps and on high speed was about 3.5 amps.  One resistor in series is rated for 4 amps so the resistor will be operating at about max current rating.

 

The only thing I can come up with is my original resistor was defective.  I say this because as soon as I applied power to the original resistor after putting it in the truck is the fact that it got super hot even when the wiper motor was turned off.  That likely indicates a short to ground within the resistor itself.

 

So what I'm going to do is reinstall everything with one change.  I'm going to fabricate a larger aluminum heat sink for the new resistor to fasten to.  

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it

 

Brad

 

[JBNeal]

that sounds like a defective resistor to me, they blow out much like an incandescent bulb when there is a defect in the filament that cannot handle the current load.

[Merle Coggins]

When you put multiple resistors in parallel the overall resistance in the circuit is lower. 2 resistors of the same resistance value will result in half of the rated resistance of each resistor. This lower resistance is why your voltage was higher. 

[bkahler]

49 minutes ago, Merle Coggins said:

When you put multiple resistors in parallel the overall resistance in the circuit is lower. 2 resistors of the same resistance value will result in half of the rated resistance of each resistor. This lower resistance is why your voltage was higher. 

 

Hi Merle, yeah I knew the voltage would go up.  What surprised me was the amount it went up.  I was expecting maybe a quarter to half a volt not two or more!  But, I'm no electronics expert so I guess I shouldn't have been too surprised.

 

Since the test was done on my dining room table...I mean work bench...without the wiper arms and the current was already just about the max for the ceramic resistor I've opted to purchase one that is rated at 6 amps.  My guess with all components connected the current would climb so I'd rather be a little proactive.  Hopefully I'll not have any more problems

 

Thanks!

 

Brad

 

[bkahler]

On 12/15/2021 at 11:23 PM, JBNeal said:

that sounds like a defective resistor to me, they blow out much like an incandescent bulb when there is a defect in the filament that cannot handle the current load.

 

What had me baffled is the overheating occurred immediately upon connecting the battery and turning the ignition to the on position.  After fiddling with the wires a little I did get the wiper motor to run for a few seconds but after that the motor wouldn't run again and the resistor just kept on cooking whether the wiper switch was on or off.  Yep, definitely a defective resistor

 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by bkahler

[ggdad1951]

about the level of EE I want to play:

 

[Merle Coggins]

Good visual Mark, but you missed the actual circuit that he created. He had a series parallel circuit. That makes the math even more complicated... ?

 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Merle Coggins

[ggdad1951]

30 minutes ago, Merle Coggins said:

Good visual Mark, but you missed the actual circuit that he created. He had a series parallel circuit. That makes the math even more complicated... ?

 

 

Like I said...I'm no EE 

[Steve-L]

For those that want to try a little more advanced ckt calc’s. 
To use, decide what you want to solve for, inner circle. Then pick the pie wedge in that quadrant that you have all the values for. Plug the values in, do the math and bob’s your uncle. 
always wanted to say that. ?

Edited December 17, 2021 by Steve-L
Correction of autocorrect

[bkahler]

On 12/13/2021 at 7:54 PM, JBNeal said:

• The air gap between the engine block and the generator body is +/- 2"

 

I tried a 48" belt and it was way to close to the block.  Just finished installing a 49" (4L490) belt and the generator is now sitting right at 2" from the block.  Time to move on to the next task

 

Thanks!

[bkahler]

9 hours ago, ggdad1951 said:

 

Like I said...I'm no EE 

 

Neither am I

 

[bkahler]

I had thought the wiper issues were behind me but it would appear that's not the case

 

After testing the motor and switch on the work bench and all seemed well I reinstalled it again today and it ran fine...for a while

 

Eventually it stopped running and would not restart.   Also the same sequence of events occurred where turning on the ignition switch would cause the dropping resistor to heat up even with the wiper switch in the off position.   At this point I swapped the new switch for the old switch with the same result, resistor heating up with the wiper switch in the off position. 

 

I think the only thing I can conclude from all of this is the motor has some sort of issue, possibly with the park position.  I found a motor with switch on ebay and bought them.  In the mean time if I have the opportunity I'll dig into the original motor.

 

Oh well....

Edited December 20, 2021 by bkahler