Video:Clarity On Rear Seal Assy 1938 201.3 Engine

[keithb7]

Hi folks. I am looking for assistance with the rear seal assembly on my 1938 201 engine. 

First time for me getting in there. I looked at shop manual 2D drawings. I think I grasp it, but it almost seems too simple. 

 

Am I missing something here?  Thanks for your guidance. 

 

https://youtu.be/cIzZAhkxJIU

Edited September 16, 2019 by keithb7

[Andydodge]

Does the engine number match the year........I've always thought that the neoprene rear main seal didn't arrive till the 1940's.......the 1941 P11 engine in the 1941 Plymouth I had was supposed to have had the rope seal yet it also had the neoprene seal........there are 2 versions of those side or "ear" seals that I call them....neither of these side seals were on my cars engine which answered the rear main seal leak question somewhat.............lol.............I have not seen the rope seal in that type of bolt on bracketry before.........I thought that the rope seal fitted to the actual main cap......but I could be wrong.........., it seems that the different types of rear main seals used were in some fashion or other interchangeable...........hope this doesn't confuse the issue........good video BTW...........andyd    

Edited September 16, 2019 by Andydodge

[Dodgeb4ya]

That looks to be the typical old 30's to early 40's rope type seal clamped to the rear of the block and main cap with the two retainer plates.... same as used in the big moly block Dodge engines up into the mid fifties..

That two piece rope seal must be carefully packed tight into those two plates and formed tight to the crankshaft surface then left protruding just a bit higher than the retainer plates at each side for rope seal crush to prevent leaks.....maybe .030"..... cut exactly straight with no loose fibers sticking out.

Also used are the two rubber cap gaskets of two possible styles....

[keithb7]

Thats a great question @Andydodge. I am not 100% sure if the engine originally matched the car. Known car history tells me it should be original to the car. 

 

Maybe someone has a way to vertify?

 

Block stamped SN reads:

P6*103633*

Block castings read:

A 11.3.37

632929-13

 

Other side of block casting, above oil pump reads P 13. 

 

1938 P6 Car body SN is 9351866

Edited September 16, 2019 by keithb7

[keithb7]

@Dodgeb4ya Your images appears like what I pulled out.  Especially the small rubber end cap pieces. Thanks.

 

These early rear seals are pretty simple. I’m not sure this particular type could be changed with the clutch bolted up and in place, in the car. Might be hard to get the upper mouting bolts, that thread into the block, out. No?

[Dodgeb4ya]

Flywheel needs to be out to really see what you are doing....even better engine on stand.

The modern "Best" brand replacement rubber and steel plate seals just bolt on the block and cap....but if the crank wear surface has even minor wear or pitting I'd use only the factory graphite type rope packing as it is more forgiving and seals better if the seal surface is slightly damaged.

The some what delicate rubber lips seals require a 100% pit free and no wear crank seal surface to seal and last with no leakage. ?

Edited September 16, 2019 by Dodgeb4ya

[wiboater]

I'm working on a Dodge powerwagon T-214 engine. It had a rubber seal That slips on over the outer side of the  rear main cap and block. No metal cap on outside. There are no bolt holes on it for the cap or the new type exterior seals. I was able to still buy the rubber seal Best Gasket number 3830. Does anyone else have an engine without the bolt holes outside? 

Edited November 4, 2019 by wiboater
clarifying where seal goes on block

[chrysler1941]

1941 Chrysler

This may help. 

[TodFitch]

On 9/15/2019 at 8:12 PM, Andydodge said:

...I have not seen the rope seal in that type of bolt on bracketry before....

 

The seal in the video looks exactly the same as the factory one in my '33 Plymouth.

 

On 9/15/2019 at 8:41 PM, Dodgeb4ya said:

That looks to be the typical old 30's to early 40's rope type seal clamped to the rear of the block and main cap with the two retainer plates.... same as used in the big moly block Dodge engines up into the mid fifties..

That two piece rope seal must be carefully packed tight into those two plates and formed tight to the crankshaft surface then left protruding just a bit higher than the retainer plates at each side for rope seal crush to prevent leaks.....maybe .030"..... cut exactly straight with no loose fibers sticking out.

Also used are the two rubber cap gaskets of two possible styles....

 

Correct on installation. My quibble is "old 30's to early 40's", that is the same setup as in my '33 which I'd count as early to middle 30's.

 

On 9/15/2019 at 8:43 PM, keithb7 said:

Thats a great question @Andydodge. I am not 100% sure if the engine originally matched the car. Known car history tells me it should be original to the car. 

 

Maybe someone has a way to vertify?

 

Block stamped SN reads:

P6*103633*

Block castings read:

A 11.3.37

632929-13

 

Other side of block casting, above oil pump reads P 13. 

 

1938 P6 Car body SN is 9351866

 

A P6 engine would have originally shipped in a 1938 Plymouth, either P5 or P6:

 

Engine Number	P6-103633
Found in range	1001 to 286619
Serial	102633 of 285619
Year	1938
Make	Plymouth
Model	DeLuxe or Road King
Engineering Code	P5 or P6
Type	Inline, L-Head
Cylinders	6
Bore and Stroke	3-1/8x4-3/8
Cu.In.	201.3
Compression	6.7:1
BHP	82@3600
Source	Standard Catalog of American Cars 1805-1942

[keithb7]

Thanks @TodFitch . It appears my engine was exactly the 1,000th P6 engine in 1938. 

[keithb7]

4 hours ago, chrysler1941 said:

1941 Chrysler

This may help. 

 

That is a perfect illustration of the rear seal. Chrylser had so many great drawings that were not shared among all the various car service manuals. 

[wiboater]

I'm going to upload a pic of the 8030 part # neoprene seal I just put in the 230 engine. 

[solcitoblue]

I bought an engine gasket set for my 201 engine I'm rebuilding.

Oil pan seal which came in the set has an indentation on the end as if the the rubber insert that fits in the main cap should fit there, see pics

 

On the last pics from a 230 engine Wiboater posts, it can be seen the "4" rubber protrudes from the main bearing,

 

But in my 201 engine, the "4" rubber piece ends flush just as in chrysler 1941 drawing sketch above.......... Question,  can I suppose the oil pan gasket is not the correct one and that I should make new ones set that should end with no indentation at the end?.

 

Thanks in advance to any info that can help  

 

 

[Andydodge]

My understanding is that the front & rear oil pan seals that fit around the rear main assembly and front main assembly go onto the block with the main caps THEN the side pan gaskets are installed and supposedly will be long enough to be slightly longer than it would seem to be required BUT you do NOT trim them to a neat fit against the main caps BUT install the oil pant and by tightening it against the block the extra length of the side gaskets gets "squashed"( a highly technical term ) into the area of the main caps and hence helps to seal better............I'd suggest using a few drops of contact glue to hold the side pan gaskets in place  .......lol.............make sense?..............lol...........what I would also do is get some 5/16th UNC all thread and cut some short lengths say 1-2" long, cut a straight screwdriver groove and install at least 4, 2 either side into the block pan rail holes, these act as a centering/locating thing and allow the pan to be installed straight onto the blocks pan rails and hopefully help in ensuring that the front & rear seals work properly..........once the pan is installed and a couple of bolts installed on both sides then these pieces of all thread can be removed and the correct bolts used BUT not overtightened ......at least thats what I did and found worked well when I dropped the sump & reinstalled it on my 1941 plymouth about 10 yrs ago...........andyd

[Bryan]

On my 1948 D4 Dodge with a 49 Plymouth block and original crank it looked like this when I took it apart. Cannot insured that it is correct. Looks weird to me that part of the gasket looks like it is under the rear cap.  Just for info.

[solcitoblue]

Thanks much Andydodge for your explanation on how to correctly mount the oil pan gasket, and Bryan for the pics......but still have questions here. 

 

From another topic I have taken a pic where you can see how oil side pan gasket sides should be mounted, just as Andydodge explains, but from pic you can see there are no cut outs on the end of the side gaskets?......

 

From Bryan pics from his 1948 engine it looks as if the "4" rubber piece which inserts in the main bearing cap protrudes from the cap, if that was correct that will be the explanation for the end of side gaskets cutouts.

 

I think that when the "4" rubber protrudes from main bearing cap side gaskets should have a cut out (mine) and when "4" rubber ends flush from main bearing cap (mine), side gaskets should not have cutouts. It looks as if both were used over time. If that could be right I either have wrong the side gaskets or the wrong "4" rubbers,......mine is the PE 1934, 201 engine but which should be correct?. 

 

Below a pic I found from a seller in ebay which offers an NOS oil pan gasket, he offers it as  "1933-1957 oil pan gasket for Plymouth"......it has no cutouts. 

 

I have also checked the "Plymouth passenger and commercial car master parts list" and can see that engines between 1933 and 1938 ( PC,PD,PE,......P7,P8) all use the same side gasket, 780477.....but was this the one with or w/o cutouts?......

 

Again thanks for any help that you can give me

 

 

[Bryan]

One would think that the pan gaskets should come further out, and have a notch in them to fit the thin strips.  Just don't know, but gaps are bad.