Split exhaust/heat riser

[Don Coatney]

When I was in Vietnam fifty years ago we had a non Mopar flat head 6 engine in a piece of road construction equipment. This engine had an updraft carburetor that failed. No replacement carburetor or parts for one were available. However Carter B&B's were plentiful. I built a U shaped manifold extender from some chunks of pipe. Welded it all together and bolted it to the updraft manifold with a B&B, The ambient temperature was close to 100 degrees F and the relative humidity was close to 100%. Started the engine and it ran great for a couple of minutes. Then the carburetor and manifold extension turned into an ice ball. General rule of artificial refrigeration is expanding fluid of any kind causes a rapid drop in temperature. As soon as the gas and moisture in the atmosphere were placed in a vacuum they expanded and the moisture in the atmosphere changed state and turned to ice.

 

I once owned a 66 Mustang 289 with a 2bbl carburetor. One winter day I was traveling from the flatland's in Ohio to the biggest hill in the state about 1500 feet. Temperature was mid 30's and it was a bit foggy. Car ran great until I reached the top of the hill. That slight change in elevation was enough of a change in atmospheric pressure to turn the carburetor into an ice ball.

 

Once again for the record I do not own a 1947 Dodge. Both my Plymouth and my Dodge are 1948 models.

[55 Fargo]

17 minutes ago, Don Coatney said:

When I was in Vietnam fifty years ago we had a non Mopar flat head 6 engine in a piece of road construction equipment. This engine had an updraft carburetor that failed. No replacement carburetor or parts for one were available. However Carter B&B's were plentiful. I built a U shaped manifold extender from some chunks of pipe. Welded it all together and bolted it to the updraft manifold with a B&B, The ambient temperature was close to 100 degrees F and the relative humidity was close to 100%. Started the engine and it ran great for a couple of minutes. Then the carburetor and manifold extension turned into an ice ball. General rule of artificial refrigeration is expanding fluid of any kind causes a rapid drop in temperature. As soon as the gas and moisture in the atmosphere were placed in a vacuum they expanded and the moisture in the atmosphere changed state and turned to ice.

 

I once owned a 66 Mustang 289 with a 2bbl carburetor. One winter day I was traveling from the flatland's in Ohio to the biggest hill in the state about 1500 feet. Temperature was mid 30's and it was a bit foggy. Car ran great until I reached the top of the hill. That slight change in elevation was enough of a change in atmospheric pressure to turn the carburetor into an ice ball.

 

Once again for the record I do not own a 1947 Dodge. Both my Plymouth and my Dodge are 1948 models.

Interesting "war story" do you foresee an intake and carb freeze up with Adam's setup.? 

Your bush made Nam intake was most certainly not a good design icing or not.

I think it will operate just fine and possibly too hot in summer weather.

Perhaps Moose can share on this his manifolds might be similar as they are made with pipe..

Your Mustang experience yes when near freezing and moisture ripe for icing and elevation changes.

I found old Fords the worse for carb icing...

Edited December 29, 2017 by 55 Fargo Spitfire

[oldasdirt]

1 hour ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

I never stated I expierenced any icing but I did expierence an ice cold intake. Mind that my intake is thin steel and not a thick casting. Does that make a difference?  ...

 

So once again, I built this thing from a pile of steel tubing, why wouldn't I add heat?  

Hi Adam -   For sure using thin wall steel pipe is a huge difference.  The longer the runs in it the bigger the issue.  It will not be as big an issue in the cold. The issue comes when it is very hot and you start to create a refrigeration effect. That is where you will need heat.   Your reference to modern engines and heating is a completely different  kettle of fish.  Just as I see DC out with his war story trying to make updraft into down draft. You need to get warmth or really insulate that pipe or again refrigeration.

 

The other thing you can do Adam if you run into issues in the summer is wrapped that intakes with header wrap. It will give it some insulation factor.  You can also weld on tabs and then a plate along your headers under your intake. You would actually be far more efficient using the exhaust heat than water.  TK is 100% correct in the drawing of heat from the intake post.

 

For cold weather your trying to warm the intake as soon as you can.  Water circulating is a terrible idea to do that.  Once the engine is hot, then it would help you for the hot weather icing of thin steel intake issue.   On Stovebolt Chevy`s lots use water circulating during the summer heat, but on Flathead mopars its never been a factor for anything I have driven. That  has to be 30+ flathead mopars over the years.

 

[1949 Wraith]

Those are interesting points Don.

I wonder if the ethanol gas that we run these days helps minimize carb freezing. Similar to when we had to add gas line antifreeze during extreme cold when we had real gas.

My 1938 Canadian Dodge has a Stromberg carb and I am not sure if they are that different to the Carters. I have the split exhaust and an Edmunds dual intake with a pair of Carters waiting to be installed. But the Stromberg works great in all conditions other than below 25 F where I might need a slight throttle pull to curtail stalling a stop. So it is staying on for the now.

[Don Coatney]

1 hour ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

Interesting "war story"

Your bush made Nam intake was most certainly not a good design icing or not.

 

Thanks for telling me that. Otherwise I may never known it was not a good design. In a war zone it is necessary to improvise. Not everything works as planned. Over the years I have had several very successful designs both in a war zone and back at home. One most notably on this forum is my T-5 install. You must agree that my install done without assistance of a kit or plate was a huge success.  Do you agree?

[oldasdirt]

2 hours ago, 1949 Goat said:

 

I wonder if the ethanol gas that we run these days helps minimize carb freezing. Similar to when we had to add gas line antifreeze during extreme cold when we had real gas.

My 1938 Canadian Dodge has a Stromberg carb and I am not sure if they are that different to the Carters. I have the split exhaust and an Edmunds dual intake with a pair of Carters waiting to be installed. But the Stromberg works great in all conditions other than below 25 F where I might need a slight throttle pull to curtail stalling a stop. So it is staying on for the now.

No ethanol does not help carbs from freezing but screws up everything, In super hot heater can actually help create the icing condition.    Pull down your carb after running 10% ethanol for a summer and have  a look at things.     Not good at all

[55 Fargo]

6 hours ago, Don Coatney said:

Thanks for telling me that. Otherwise I may never known it was not a good design. In a war zone it is necessary to improvise. Not everything works as planned. Over the years I have had several very successful designs both in a war zone and back at home. One most notably on this forum is my T-5 install. You must agree that my install done without assistance of a kit or plate was a huge success.  Do you agree?

On this forum only or are you including your T5 threads over on the hamb Don? Your T5 threads were quite lively on the HAMB I recall...

I can " agree to disagree" have a great day......lol 

Edited December 30, 2017 by 55 Fargo Spitfire

[Adam H P15 D30]

8 hours ago, oldasdirt said:

Hi Adam -   For sure using thin wall steel pipe is a huge difference.  The longer the runs in it the bigger the issue.  It will not be as big an issue in the cold. The issue comes when it is very hot and you start to create a refrigeration effect. That is where you will need heat.   Your reference to modern engines and heating is a completely different  kettle of fish.  Just as I see DC out with his war story trying to make updraft into down draft. You need to get warmth or really insulate that pipe or again refrigeration.

 

The other thing you can do Adam if you run into issues in the summer is wrapped that intakes with header wrap. It will give it some insulation factor.  You can also weld on tabs and then a plate along your headers under your intake. You would actually be far more efficient using the exhaust heat than water.  TK is 100% correct in the drawing of heat from the intake post.

 

For cold weather your trying to warm the intake as soon as you can.  Water circulating is a terrible idea to do that.  Once the engine is hot, then it would help you for the hot weather icing of thin steel intake issue.   On Stovebolt Chevy`s lots use water circulating during the summer heat, but on Flathead mopars its never been a factor for anything I have driven. That  has to be 30+ flathead mopars over the years.

 

Like you said I'm not concerned with icing when the engine is cold or warming up. As Don pointed out it happens with a warm engine just as easily and it doesn't have to be cold out. Therefore using coolant is the perfect remedy. My intake will be a steady 170 degrees or a little more, and it has everything to do with modern engines, same principle. I'm not so sure insulating is the answer as it is cooled from the inside out. 

So far I haven't run it long enough to know if there even is a problem but I'm absolutely glad I built coolant heat into the intake because is would be a pain to add it later. 

 

Thanks Don for explaining it so well and for your service. 

Edited December 30, 2017 by Adam H P15 D30

[oldasdirt]

30 minutes ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

Like you said I'm not concerned with icing when the engine is cold or warming up. As Don pointed out it happens with a warm engine just as easily and it doesn't have to be cold out. Therefore using coolant is the perfect remedy. My intake will be a steady 170 degrees or a little more, and it has everything to do with modern engines, same principle. I'm not so sure insulating is the answer as it is cooled from the inside out. 

So far I haven't run it long enough to know if there even is a problem but I'm absolutely glad I built coolant heat into the intake because is would be a pain to add it later. 

 

Thanks Don for explaining it so well and for your service. 

 

I think Adam what Don pointed out was trying to turn an updraft into a down draft carb setup with what he had available was unsuccessful and to me not surprising. Given where he claims he was and what he had available I understand what he did. Had he the ability to insulate things around the thin steel he would have been more successful.  At trip to the Walter Chrysler Museum and looking at the tank engine configuration you would see such insulation wrapping.  In any case, I think as was pointed out earlier your water coolant is only at operating temperature when it is hot. Its not helping in extreme cold until it gets to that point and  is counter productive until that point. Now if your not driving in real winter conditions then its a non factor.   In terms of insulating you may wish to do a little more research as its clear I haven't gotten across the points.  Having said that sometimes people just need to learn the hard way.  I do wish you the best of luck, I really do.

[greg g]

Question of flow.  Is the heater part of the bypass flow circuit?  If it is, then doesn't it begin to receive warm coolant before the thermostat opens?  Assuming the heater supply on the back of the head is open,the intake if plumbed into that portion of the coolant  would flow through the intake thereby giving it heat without being up to full operating temp.  In fact it might even lengthen the time the coolant stays in bypass by providing a fairly large heat sink in and of it self. I have read some where that a heater core can provide up to 30% of total cooling.  Throw in a big chunk of aluminum, or steel and you may be close to half the system load, might even prevent the thermostat from ever fully opening in certain temp conditions.

[Adam H P15 D30]

My intake is plumbed before the heater valve. Starts warming up within minutes of starting a cold engine. I'm really not concerned with the short time it takes to warm but the fact that it stays warm. It is in no way dependent on the thermostat or heater valve setting. 

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by Adam H P15 D30
Avoid confrontation

[JOHN EDGE]

On December 29, 2017 at 11:16 AM, 50plymouth said:

It already exists John.  I have had Fentons, Offys and even tried an Edgy (all too low) and Edmunds (best of the olde skool dual carb intakes) but when I got the AoK one from Tim Kingsbury it became obvious he knows what he is doing.  I have a 230 and it got almost 12 miles to the gallon better than the stock intake with 1 carb. I coupled it with George Asche`s headers so the increased fuel mileage could be attributed to the pair I am sure. Their was clearly more hp and more torque.  With previous cars where I used Fenton or Offy intakes the rev was there, plus some but I lost a lot of torque.    Here is the link on the site. On ethanol, I agree with you. Its nasty on carbs and their gaskets, rubber lines and for flatheads just isnt the fuel of choice. Again, in my opinion. Im lucky as I have lots of non-ethanol fuel options around me. In fact several 100 and above octane fuel options around me. 

 

 

Thanks for the info. Looks interesting

[55 Fargo]

On 29/12/2017 at 3:49 PM, Don Coatney said:

Thanks for telling me that. Otherwise I may never known it was not a good design. In a war zone it is necessary to improvise. Not everything works as planned. Over the years I have had several very successful designs both in a war zone and back at home. One most notably on this forum is my T-5 install. You must agree that my install done without assistance of a kit or plate was a huge success.  Do you agree?

I've edited this post for this reason.

This is Adam's thread on his intake and exhaust. Posting about transmissions is in poor taste so apologies for that on my part.

For whatever reason Don Coatney was blowing his horn on his T5 Swap, and have no idea why and he should edit it and apologize.

Adam wish you the best on this project....

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by 55 Fargo Spitfire
My Post Off Topic

[Ward Duffield]

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/200808-isnt-intake-manifold-pre-heating-obselete/