Chrysler Industrial Transplants

[55 Fargo]

There may have very well been more than 8 cam profiles for the 230 engine alone.

Cars truck, from the start of this engines reign until it's end. The industrial applications, the Agriculture applications, the 2 bbl and higher compression applications the 1960s versions of this engine...

[Matt Wilson]

9 hours ago, wayfarer said:

I might question 80 different cam profiles for any one engine from a single manufacturer....I'm not thinking that even am sbc would have that.....8 might be more realistic but that is not the subject at hand.

There are still plenty of the 25" units so it is good to see them being used.

I don't think Tim was talking about a single engine.  Rather, I think he was talking about all of the various flatheads that Chrysler corporation made.  He might have even been including the Big Berthas that were used in the heavy-duty trucks.  At any rate, I'm just passing along what he said.  He says his grandfather and father were automotive engineers at Chrysler back in the days when the flatheads were at the top of the heap.  In fact, interestingly, he told me his grandfather started up one of the flathead production plants in 1935.  Apparently, Tim has kept all of the old documents, parts (including experimental parts) and other related stuff that his father and grandfather brought home, and it sounds like they brought home a LOT. 

[timkingsbury]

21 hours ago, Matt Wilson said:

Tim Kingsbury told me that there were over 80 different cam profiles for the flatheads, some of which were used in industrial units.  That way, Chrysler could tailor the performance of the engine to the application.  Applications included cars and trucks of all sizes, stationery pumps, compressors, tugs, welders, generators and probably numerous other applications.  Some folks have posted on other sites that in some applications, the engine would run at high rpm's continuously.  So it's hard to say what to expect if transplanting an industrial engine into an automotive or truck application.

Umm  If I didnt say dont post that one the forum I should have and the reason being is almost every time it winds up costing me tons of time to defend the facts or winds up into a scrap which to be honest is why I stay off the forum as much as I can. The why are you here now.. well 8 members emailed me today and lol... dragged me back in. 

I also hate Wikepedia, but to save some time, here is the listing for just the car engines

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_flathead_engine

I haven't checked for accuracy but it shows 27 engines and I know from my Grandfathers documentation, just out of the Canadian Engine Plant starting in 1935 for the 1936 model year to the end of production in 1959 there were over 55 cams just for cars.

On the truck side, there were specs for pickups and bigger trucks using the exact same engine, and then another cam change for those engines where they used multiple carbs. Aka  1952 265.

Now ad over 37 different combination of the flathead 6 for marine,  ranging from civilian to military to different variation for different countries depending on octane level.  

Next we have the agricultural sector which had combines for 4 different manufacturers,  6 swathers,  3 tractors and then different generations of those and you have a bunch more cams.

Then there were water pumps, which used 11 different flatheads,  welders with over 22 different flatheads, aircraft,   welders, snowmobiles,  tugs for aircraft,   fork lifts, loaders and generators. There were 14 cams just for air compressors, some of which drove a compressor and some of which used some of the cylinders to produce air.  On the miltary side absolutely ever engine had its one spec and cams.   From cars,  trucks, power wagons, heck even tanks.

The reality is we have the specs we can grind over 80 different cams, it is not there were over 80 different cams..  Hell I havent even counted it but its several hundred different cams for flatheads.

Go find any engine in history that was used in more places than the flathead mopar 6 cylinder... If there is one,  Its sure wont be a small block chevy..

 

 

9 hours ago, wayfarer said:

I might question 80 different cam profiles for any one engine from a single manufacturer....I'm not thinking that even am sbc would have that.....8 might be more realistic but that is not the subject at hand.

There are still plenty of the 25" units so it is good to see them being used.

Lol..   why do people this a small block chevy is the gold standard for anything ?   

Actually but since your on the topic..   Just for marine..  not talking whatever else a SBC is used for, but just marine, I could find 17 different cam specs.    Im not picking on you but I did have to laugh.. 8.. There are at least 51 cam patterns just for the Canadian, USA, British, and Israel military just for the Canadian 25 1/2" engine.. Different hp, different octane, different fuel from gas to propane to some weird fuel requirements out on the field.   I have no idea how many more there were for the USA side.

I do agree there are lots of 25 1/2" still around which is amazing given the last one rolled out of the engine plant in Windsor before I was born in 1960.    But the plant pretty much ran around the clock from 1952 to the switch over to the slant six in 1959. 

[timkingsbury]

26 minutes ago, Matt Wilson said:

I don't think Tim was talking about a single engine.  Rather, I think he was talking about all of the various flatheads that Chrysler corporation made.  He might have even been including the Big Berthas that were used in the heavy-duty trucks.  At any rate, I'm just passing along what he said.  He says his grandfather and father were automotive engineers at Chrysler back in the days when the flatheads were at the top of the heap.  In fact, interestingly, he told me his grandfather started up one of the flathead production plants in 1935.  Apparently, Tim has kept all of the old documents, parts (including experimental parts) and other related stuff that his father and grandfather brought home, and it sounds like they brought home a LOT. 

Your close..  we were talking canadian 25 1/2" engines..    from 1935 to 1959.  My Grandfather was hired by Walter Chrysler himself and was an Engineer. My Dad was an automotive engineer, worked on a ton of different chrysler engines, from flatheads to v8s to Hemis and over all kinds of applications and racing. He did not work for Chrysler.  My Grandfather was the GM of the engine plant in Windsor Ontario.

I do not have all of the stuff grandfather had.. I do have an entire room 12 x 24 feet, set up like a library  with rows 8 feet high with documentation. When Grandfather retired, the flathead was no longer even remotely current and as part of his retirement package he was allowed to take home his personal library from the engine plant of all the obsolete stuff.  Honestly I have no clue how much there is. its not dozens of manuals. Its not hundreds of manuals, its thousands. I would guess just his work diaries, notes, drawings etc would be several hundred thousands of pages.  At one point he offered to  give it all to the Chrysler Museum and they passed.

He did donate about a couple of pallets of documentation.

[Matt Wilson]

14 minutes ago, timkingsbury said:

Umm  If I didnt say dont post that one the forum I should have and the reason being is almost every time it winds up costing me tons of time to defend the facts or winds up into a scrap which to be honest is why I stay off the forum as much as I can. The why are you here now.. well 8 members emailed me today and lol... dragged me back in. 

My apologies, Tim.  I won't quote you again when trying to add to a forum topic.  This info was based on notes I had taken when you and I had some lengthy conversations many months ago.  I had hoped that disseminating this kind of information would add something positive to the discussion, and I for one, believe you carry a lot of credibility, considering your background, so I figured this kind of info would be of benefit to others as well.  But....I also understand that people sometimes like to get into debates over things that in my mind should not be all that debatable, and I certainly understand your desire not to get into yet another scrap.  Consider your message received - I'll certainly respect your wishes.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Matt Wilson

[55 Fargo]

Thanx Tim for clearing this up, yes anyone who may believe only 8 cam profiles were manufactured and used is either quite misinformed.

Being this thread was created for discussions on the Industrial engines, cam profiles and heads would be many.

I of course against better historical judgement should have added in as a Blog, and like Tim, do not want to participate on this forum on a regular basis.

Small Block Chevys, geesh that the best one could come up with.....

Edited October 20, 2017 by 55 Fargo Spitfire

[wayfarer]

On 10/18/2017 at 6:39 PM, timkingsbury said:

Umm  If I didnt say dont post that one the forum I should have and the reason being is almost every time it winds up costing me tons of time to defend the facts or winds up into a scrap which to be honest is why I stay off the forum as much as I can. The why are you here now.. well 8 members emailed me today and lol... dragged me back in. 

I also hate Wikepedia, but to save some time, here is the listing for just the car engines

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_flathead_engine

I haven't checked for accuracy but it shows 27 engines and I know from my Grandfathers documentation, just out of the Canadian Engine Plant starting in 1935 for the 1936 model year to the end of production in 1959 there were over 55 cams just for cars.

On the truck side, there were specs for pickups and bigger trucks using the exact same engine, and then another cam change for those engines where they used multiple carbs. Aka  1952 265.

Now ad over 37 different combination of the flathead 6 for marine,  ranging from civilian to military to different variation for different countries depending on octane level.  

Next we have the agricultural sector which had combines for 4 different manufacturers,  6 swathers,  3 tractors and then different generations of those and you have a bunch more cams.

Then there were water pumps, which used 11 different flatheads,  welders with over 22 different flatheads, aircraft,   welders, snowmobiles,  tugs for aircraft,   fork lifts, loaders and generators. There were 14 cams just for air compressors, some of which drove a compressor and some of which used some of the cylinders to produce air.  On the miltary side absolutely ever engine had its one spec and cams.   From cars,  trucks, power wagons, heck even tanks.

The reality is we have the specs we can grind over 80 different cams, it is not there were over 80 different cams..  Hell I havent even counted it but its several hundred different cams for flatheads.

Go find any engine in history that was used in more places than the flathead mopar 6 cylinder... If there is one,  Its sure wont be a small block chevy..

 

 

Lol..   why do people this a small block chevy is the gold standard for anything ?   

Actually but since your on the topic..   Just for marine..  not talking whatever else a SBC is used for, but just marine, I could find 17 different cam specs.    Im not picking on you but I did have to laugh.. 8.. There are at least 51 cam patterns just for the Canadian, USA, British, and Israel military just for the Canadian 25 1/2" engine.. Different hp, different octane, different fuel from gas to propane to some weird fuel requirements out on the field.   I have no idea how many more there were for the USA side.

I do agree there are lots of 25 1/2" still around which is amazing given the last one rolled out of the engine plant in Windsor before I was born in 1960.    But the plant pretty much ran around the clock from 1952 to the switch over to the slant six in 1959. 

OK Tim, I'll bite....when you have time send me a list of the variations in the first 80 cams that you have documentations for as I'd like to be better informed and not just slimed by your Canadian brother for questioning what was offered.

[55 Fargo]

2 hours ago, wayfarer said:

OK Tim, I'll bite....when you have time send me a list of the variations in the first 80 cams that you have documentations for as I'd like to be better informed and not just slimed by your Canadian brother for questioning what was offered.

Why not take this to a PM or telephone call?

Not sure anything needs to be proven on this matter, any particular reason you need to derail this thread?

It's a thread discussing Chrysler industrial engines, not how many cam profiles and configurations existed for the entire Chrysler flathead 6 cylinder engine run...

You obviously doubt the numbers of "cam profiles",  so the best option is to telephone George, or PM Tim, or something, if you would like to know this info..

[timkingsbury]

3 hours ago, wayfarer said:

OK Tim, I'll bite....when you have time send me a list of the variations in the first 80 cams that you have documentations for as I'd like to be better informed and not just slimed by your Canadian brother for questioning what was offered.

Well unfortunately my Canadian brother passed away long ago. Beyond that as I said these conversations usually just turn into someone doing exactly what you are doing, and costs me time and energy, and you clearly feel there is nothing wrong with that, like taking a shot at my family or Canadians or whatever point you were attempting to make.   Like the reference of sbc chevy cam's suggesting the number of cams likely couldnt be beyond 8.  Just on that topic, feel free to do your own research on just marine cams for small block chevys. 

All that being said, if you  took the time just to see the wiki link with the shear number of different flathead 6 mopar engines, then gave it some thought about the shear number of applications the flathead mopar was used in, you should have already concluded that over 80  cam variations and not 8 would be very possible.  The fact your reply was "when you have time send me a list of the variations of the first 80 cams......" my conclusion remains that it appears you were and are more interested in causing my work and taking shots than really trying to get information. As such,  on this topic, I will not be participating any further.

[wayfarer]

...and just how is asking for information that is 'apparently' on hand causing more work? Claiming to have documents but declining to offer them when asked only says that they do not really exist. I DID NOT question the possibility or ask for the details for any reason other than to expand my knowledge base.  As for 'taking this to a PM', that works fine if I wanted to also hoard the supposed info but having a list on this forum helps EVERYONE reading, both now and in any future search. The two of you are the ones who often seem to be at the root of conflict, not me.

 

[RobertKB]

Pretty sure Tim has all the documents and documentation mentioned. This topic should either end or go back to the purpose as asked by the original poster.

[55 Fargo]

24 minutes ago, RobertKB said:

Pretty sure Tim has all the documents and documentation mentioned. This topic should either end or go back to the purpose as asked by the original poster.

I agree not sure how cam profiles are the basis of this thread.

Well it needs to be edited by the Mods or locked.

 

[55 Fargo]

4 hours ago, wayfarer said:

...and just how is asking for information that is 'apparently' on hand causing more work? Claiming to have documents but declining to offer them when asked only says that they do not really exist. I DID NOT question the possibility or ask for the details for any reason other than to expand my knowledge base.  As for 'taking this to a PM', that works fine if I wanted to also hoard the supposed info but having a list on this forum helps EVERYONE reading, both now and in any future search. The two of you are the ones who often seem to be at the root of conflict, not me.

 

You really should give George Asche a call.

Hopefully he or the AoK Boys can set you right again.

 

Added at 1508 CDT

You know what after thinking about this for a while, here is my response and advice to you.

You are not going to get any answers, stats, specs or info, never mind this bull$hit, that others want to know now and in the future, if they do, they can ask Tim, and sure he would be accommodating.

You made so much trouble with the A833 adapter plate, and would not let it go, in fact did you not get the drift after that thread went in the toilet.

Why don't you give it up, you obviously enjoy "grand standing" and you are getting no where on this issue.

Highly unlikely Tim is going to ingratiate you with an answer, he owes you and anyone else on here nothing, and believe me he has nothing to prove, but it sure looks like you do???

 

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by 55 Fargo Spitfire

[55 Fargo]

52 minutes ago, T120 said:

Just put on the popcorn, Frank...kinda sit back... and relax. 

T120 i realize from another perspective this might appear funny. 

But in reality these Thread Terrorists just win when in reality it's a no- win situation. This gets old real quick and wastes time and the site owners bandwidth.

By all means enjoy your intermission refreshments from your Snack Bar...

[wayfarer]

22 hours ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

You really should give George Asche a call.

Hopefully he or the AoK Boys can set you right again.

 

Added at 1508 CDT

You know what after thinking about this for a while, here is my response and advice to you.

You are not going to get any answers, stats, specs or info, never mind this bull$hit, that others want to know now and in the future, if they do, they can ask Tim, and sure he would be accommodating.

You made so much trouble with the A833 adapter plate, and would not let it go, in fact did you not get the drift after that thread went in the toilet.

Why don't you give it up, you obviously enjoy "grand standing" and you are getting no where on this issue.

Highly unlikely Tim is going to ingratiate you with an answer, he owes you and anyone else on here nothing, and believe me he has nothing to prove, but it sure looks like you do???

 

 

 This will be my last entry on this thread unless you continue to  add insults to which I will respond.

As an engineer I am a NUMBERS kinda guy. You want to build an adapter and ignore a hundred years of actual, factual design....go for it. But, I will question your approach.

If you, or anyone else, claims to have massive amounts of engineering data about a subject that I am familiar with, and have a desire to continue learning about, then be ready for me to ask you to share that data. If it actually exists, then why not share it? Very simple question .....

 

[TodFitch]

Going downhill fast here so I am locking this thread/topic.