Enginenumber

[Kingsway]

Hello. New today in this forum. I have a question regarding my Dodge Kingsway 1951, made in Canada and shipped to Sweden in parts to be assembled here, back in those days. I wounder about my engine number, it's :

DP23*241 321*

Does anyone have ant information regarding these letters and numbers?

 

[dpollo]

The Dodge Kingsway was built on the same chassis as Plymouth.   A 51 Plymouth would have the  engine number prefaced with P22 or P23.

A Dodge built in Canada for Canadian sale would be  D39 or D40 and this would be a 25 inch (cylinder head length) engine.

as for the exports it is possible that the code DP23 was used especially if the engine was a 23 inch cyl head length.

Your car's original engine number is stamped on the frame exactly 13 inches behind the left rear axle on the vertical face. This was intended to be a hidden number which takes some effort to see. 

On cars which were shipped in parts for assembly there is a good chance this was a generic engine  used for both  Dodge  and Plymouth hence DP.

Edited March 3, 2017 by dpollo
sentence alignment

[Kingsway]

Thanks "dpollo" for the fast replay!

Just went out the my garage and checked the lenght of the cyl head and it was 23 inch!....great!

Tomorrow I will check the frame regarding of number.

have a nice weekend!

 

[classiccarjack]

I really want to know if your engine is a 230 or a 218.  If you remove the brass plug on your rear cylinder, you can rotate you engine around by hand and measure the stroke from TDC to BDC and come up with the length. 4 5/8" is a 230, and shorter = 218....

Please post your findings.

[dpollo]

Now I am curious.

 What body style is your Kingsway?   The reason I ask is that  Dodge Kingsways  originally sold in Canada were  all short wheelbase  three passenger coupes.    I have a Dodge Kingsway convertible built for export with the 23 inch engine.  It is trimmed like a Regent and as the fender scripts were missing I assumed it was a Regent. Not so.  It is a Kingsway and I have since obtained the correct scripts.

Although Plymouth convertibles were popular enough, the smaller Dodge  is a rarity in that body style.

[46Ply]

Doesn't look like the engine number has been identified yet.  But, if you refer to this site, the number would fall between the D22 and D24 series which is a 230 CI.  Which would be an assumption, not necessarily correct.

http://www.t137.com/registry/help/otherengines/dengines.html

 

 

[Kingsway]

19 hours ago, dpollo said:

Now I am curious.

 What body style is your Kingsway?   The reason I ask is that  Dodge Kingsways  originally sold in Canada were  all short wheelbase  three passenger coupes.    I have a Dodge Kingsway convertible built for export with the 23 inch engine.  It is trimmed like a Regent and as the fender scripts were missing I assumed it was a Regent. Not so.  It is a Kingsway and I have since obtained the correct scripts.

Although Plymouth convertibles were popular enough, the smaller Dodge  is a rarity in that body style.

My Kingsway is a 4 door! See attached picture. Grey color when new but repainted in black in the 70:s. 

[dpollo]

Thank you.  That model sold in Canada would have been a Regent.  The cheaper model without the rear fender shields and brightwork around the windshield would have been a Crusader.  I drove a Regent 4 door for 20 years finally scrapping it due to rust.  I saved all the good parts for the convertible.

[Kingsway]

On 2017-03-04 at 5:47 PM, classiccarjack said:

I really want to know if your engine is a 230 or a 218.  If you remove the brass plug on your rear cylinder, you can rotate you engine around by hand and measure the stroke from TDC to BDC and come up with the length. 4 5/8" is a 230, and shorter = 218....

Please post your findings.

Classicarjack! How much less do you mean compearing 218 and 230 stroke? A little bit hard to measure but i got something like 112mm ( 4,409 inch)!

4 5/8" is about 117,45 mm, according to my calculator.

Thanks for some replay!

[classiccarjack]

19 hours ago, Kingsway said:

Classicarjack! How much less do you mean compearing 218 and 230 stroke? A little bit hard to measure but i got something like 112mm ( 4,409 inch)!

4 5/8" is about 117,45 mm, according to my calculator.

Thanks for some replay!

Your engine is a 218 cubic inch.  218 engines used a 4 3/8 stroke.  They became 230 cubic inch when the stroke was increased to 4 5/8 inches. 1 inch = 2.54 CM. I have 24 flatheads by the barn that I have collected through the years.  None of them are marked like yours on the ID pad...  That is what inspires me about your engine being identified.

[classiccarjack]

I forgot to mention that it would be tough to measure an exact 4.375" or 11.1125 CM while trying to do this on your own with the engine in the car.  Your measurements will be somewhat close to the exact reading due to the angle of what you are measuring with inside that hole in retrospect of where the brass plug is located. Measuring with a perfect 90° in that hole is a challenge by yourself, especially while spinning the engine over with your other hand...

Thank you for letting me know your findings.

 

 

[Don Coatney]

The plug is located directly above the piston. Straight shot with no angle.

 

[rb1949]

Next is waiting to see comparison of numbers from the frame. Does that script on the fender say Kingsway or Regent?

[Kingsway]

2 hours ago, rb1949 said:

Next is waiting to see comparison of numbers from the frame. Does that script on the fender say Kingsway or Regent?

rb1949, this is what I found on the left sude frame: one "stamp" M and one " stamp" 2. And further back on the frame something that lookes : L P18L !!...... Maybe it's not an L, only a mark at the front and end of the text P18?

Sorry for my english, hope you understand anyhow!

And yes, it's Kingsway Custom on the front fender script!

[timkingsbury]

On ‎03‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 0:09 PM, Kingsway said:

Hello. New today in this forum. I have a question regarding my Dodge Kingsway 1951, made in Canada and shipped to Sweden in parts to be assembled here, back in those days. I wounder about my engine number, it's :

DP23*241 321*

Does anyone have ant information regarding these letters and numbers?

 

Ive read that your engine is 23" so it is made in the USA.  There were never any 23" small blocks made in Canada, just as starting with the 1936 model year all 25" 6 cylinders were only made in Windsor Ontario Canada.   If your car was a convertible, the ones sold in Canada were actually assembled in Detroit and all have 25" engines. The engine serial numbers are actually applied  at the point its destination or purpose is determined.

On the oil filler side down by the oil pan there will be a date code cast into the block.  It is unusual to see  DP or export cars/engines shown as manufactured in Canada with the USA engines. In fact almost a little suspicious, but I wonder if there was a export advantage to ship from Canada vs USA a that point.  Certainly my family has pictures of the barges across the river between Detroit (USA) and Windsor (Canada) and cars being moved back and forth.  The convertibles were the most frequent, but perhaps export cars were similar in nature. 

 

Very cool

[Kingsway]

Timkingsbury, thanks for the information. I really star to think where I got the fact that my car is made in Canada? Maybe my father told me this, it was his car before he past away in 1996. But I dont know where he got that information!! Could it be that even cars from Detroit was exported in parts to Europe, like Sweden?

Just checked my date code, little hard to see, but it looks like : 4.5.51, couldn't see any letter!

Also behind the starter there was some numbers : 1326229-34, what is this?

On the right front door "suport""there is a plate that says: Vehicle number 12728143.

The story goes on!

 

[JerseyHarold]

If your car were made in Canada, it would probably have a data plate on the firewall with the paint code and other information stamped on it.  US-built cars did not have this plate.

[Kingsway]

20 hours ago, JerseyHarold said:

If your car were made in Canada, it would probably have a data plate on the firewall with the paint code and other information stamped on it.  US-built cars did not have this plate.

The only plate there is, was installed here in Sweden in the Swedish Automobile Factory in Stockholm back in 50-51!

And it says ( in swedish) that this a Dodge made in Stockholm.

Even Ford had a assembleyplant in Stockholm in those days!

Plymouth cars was assembled in another town, Nyköping. That plant become later to be a Saab plant!

[dpollo]

 The serial number on the left hand door post ( A pillar) starts with a 1  which means Detroit.  That explains the 23 inch engine.

 9 is Windsor and 2 is LosAngeles  II am not sure what Evansville used.

[Kingsway]

6 hours ago, dpollo said:

 The serial number on the left hand door post ( A pillar) starts with a 1  which means Detroit.  That explains the 23 inch engine.

 9 is Windsor and 2 is LosAngeles  II am not sure what Evansville used.

It's really interesting that my car might be a Detroit car! Only confusion is why my plate is located on right hand door post? cant see any markes or holes that it would been placed on left side in the past, but I will take a closer look this weekend. Will this mean that even the Detroit plant sent cars in parts in wooden boxes on export to Europe?

 

[dpollo]

  I am sure that information is out there somewhere.  dp

[B-Watson]

For Plymouth serial numbers after WW II, serial numbers starting with "1" were built in Detroit,  "25", "26," and "28" were built in California, "20", "21", "22", "23", and "24" were Evansville.  Canadian production stated with "95" or "96".   

For the California-built cars, the San Leandro plant (1949 to 1954) used numbers beginning with "255", "265" and "285".   After 1955 "265" numbers were V8 models built in Los Angeles. The "281" and "285" numbers were used in 1957 for Plymouths built at Newark, Delaware.  Newark came on line late in the 1957 model year.  The plant was built in 1951 for production of tanks, but by 1955 the US government did not need new tanks.

As for the export Dodges, they were built in both the US and Canada.  Prior to 1951 the US-built Kingsways used the same model numbers as the Canadian Plodges and had their own seven digit serial number sequences starting with either "3" or "4".   The export Kingsway was built at the Lynch Road plant in Detroit with some models from Evansville. 

Starting with the 1951 models, the US-built Kingsway used US Detroit Plymouth serial numbers and placed the letter "D" in front of the Plymouth engine number.  Thus the engine on a 1951 or 1952 Kingsway built in the U.S. would start with DP23.  The engine should be a 23" block, 217.6-cid flathead six.  Also, production figures for the US-built Kingsway were included with Plymouth while the Canadian versions were still separate from Plymouth.  At least through 1956.

Chrysler began production of 25" block flathead sixes for the Canadian-built cars and trucks in mid-1938.  Thus the early 1938 Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto, Chrysler, and Fargo sixes built in Canada had American engines. 

Chrysler of Canada built no convertibles of any kind from 1937 through to 1962.  All were imported from Detroit.  And all imported cars from Detroit were built to US specs.  Thus they had 23" flathead engines (Plymouth and Dodge), American colours, American serial numbers, etc.  The first Plodge convertible sold in Canada after 1936 was the 1954 Dodge Mayfair.  They had "Mayfair" script on the rear quarter panels, with a small rubber plug filling the hole needed for the longer Belvedere and Kingsway script.  Engine was the Plymouth engine.

As for the Swedish Dodge, it appears it may be a 1951 Dodge Kingsway Custom sedan.  The serial number would tell.  The hubcaps with the red centre were used on 1951 US-built Dodges.  The trunk lid is a quick way to tell way to tell 1951 from 1952.  The 1951 had the "DODGE" letters a few inches above the license plate light housing (as in 1950) while the 1952 had the letters down on the housing.  Also, the 1950-51 light had a round lens while the 1952 was rectangular. 

Chrysler shipped CKD (Completely Knocked Down) units to various plants all over the world.  What was in the box depended upon what the receiving company wanted.  Bodies could be shipped painted in white or in a finished colour.  Some countries used local suppliers for various parts (interiors, rubber, electrical) and thus those parts were not shipped.

DP23*241 321*  - DP23 is for a 1951-52 Dodge Kingsway (all three series)

241 321 - The 240,321st engine built.

What is the serial number?

 

Bill

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by B-Watson
Correction - San Leandro not El Segundo

[Kingsway]

 B-WATSON, thanks for the detailed information!

Looks now that in fact my car is made in Detroit and not in Canada that I have belived trough the years! Regarding Your question:

" What is the serial number?" What do You mean by that, sorry that I don't understand!

[Don Coatney]

On 3/10/2017 at 9:26 PM, B-Watson said:

For Plymouth serial numbers after WW II, serial numbers starting with "1" were built in Detroit,  "25", "26," and "28" were built in California, "20", "21", "22", "23", and "24" were Evansville.  Canadian production stated with "95" or "96".   

For the California-built cars, the El Segundo plant (1949 to 1954) used numbers beginning with "255", "265" and "285".   After 1955 "265" numbers were V8 models built in Los Angeles. The "281" and "285" numbers were used in 1957 for Plymouths built at Newark, Delaware.  Newark came on line late in the 1957 model year.  The plant was built in 1951 for production of tanks, but by 1955 the US government did not need new tanks.

As for the export Dodges, they were built in both the US and Canada.  Prior to 1951 the US-built Kingsways used the same model numbers as the Canadian Plodges and had their own seven digit serial number sequences starting with either "3" or "4".   The export Kingsway was built at the Lynch Road plant in Detroit with some models from Evansville. 

Starting with the 1951 models, the US-built Kingsway used US Detroit Plymouth serial numbers and placed the letter "D" in front of the Plymouth engine number.  Thus the engine on a 1951 or 1952 Kingsway built in the U.S. would start with DP23.  The engine should be a 23" block, 217.6-cid flathead six.  Also, production figures for the US-built Kingsway were included with Plymouth while the Canadian versions were still separate from Plymouth.  At least through 1956.

Chrysler began production of 25" block flathead sixes for the Canadian-built cars and trucks in mid-1938.  Thus the early 1938 Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto, Chrysler, and Fargo sixes built in Canada had American engines. 

Chrysler of Canada built no convertibles of any kind from 1937 through to 1962.  All were imported from Detroit.  And all imported cars from Detroit were built to US specs.  Thus they had 23" flathead engines (Plymouth and Dodge), American colours, American serial numbers, etc.  The first Plodge convertible sold in Canada after 1936 was the 1954 Dodge Mayfair.  They had "Mayfair" script on the rear quarter panels, with a small rubber plug filling the hole needed for the longer Belvedere and Kingsway script.  Engine was the Plymouth engine.

As for the Swedish Dodge, it appears it may be a 1951 Dodge Kingsway Custom sedan.  The serial number would tell.  The hubcaps with the red centre were used on 1951 US-built Dodges.  The trunk lid is a quick way to tell way to tell 1951 from 1952.  The 1951 had the "DODGE" letters a few inches above the license plate light housing (as in 1950) while the 1952 had the letters down on the housing.  Also, the 1950-51 light had a round lens while the 1952 was rectangular. 

Chrysler shipped CKD (Completely Knocked Down) units to various plants all over the world.  What was in the box depended upon what the receiving company wanted.  Bodies could be shipped painted in white or in a finished colour.  Some countries used local suppliers for various parts (interiors, rubber, electrical) and thus those parts were not shipped.

DP23*241 321*  - DP23 is for a 1951-52 Dodge Kingsway (all three series)

241 321 - The 240,321st engine built.

What is the serial number?

 

Bill

 

Quick question Bill. Is the spitfire head a Canadian only thing or were they also produced in the States? 

[greg g]

The serial number is a sequential number generated and applied as a Chrysler vehicle was completed on the assembly line.  That number is normally inscribed or punched into a metal plate and screwed or riveted to the car's "A" pillar.  This is the number Chryslerused to identify a vehicle in their records.  This number preceded what today are called "VIN" numbers for completed vehicle identification.