Back, Clutch & Pressure Plates, A Whole Lotta Shakin'

[JohnTeee]

Well, after a long hiatus, both from the forum and the '47 Plymouth, we are getting things going again.

 

We 'blew up' a clutch a while back and experienced a some problems trying to replace it. Not sure if I brought the first set of problems on to myself . . .

 

In looking at the flywheel, there are two sets of bolt holes: the 'inner' set matches up to my original Borg & Beck 9-1/8" Clutch and Pressure Plate, rebuilt by TN Clutch in 2005. The 'outer' set of holes match up to the 10" 6-Spring Borg & Beck Clutch I had on my shelf. (Clutch Pat. No. 2.277.555-2.448.079; 9-Spring Pressure Plate Pat. No. 1889939-1880590-2104982). I believe these came out of an early 50's auto. With a son in 3-On-The-Tree learning mode, I thought the 10" would be a good drop in. My Clutch alignment tool fit fine, the clutch splines matched up with the trani shaft splines, but was a bit of a tight fit. We tried multiple times to mount the clutch, pressure plate and trani and things sort of hung there.

 

Last week we pulled the 10" clutch/pressure plate out and installed a spare 9-1/8" Borg & Beck that appeared to have some life left in it. Doing some reading, I realized that there was a gasket missing between the bell housing and trani - never had one there that I'm aware of. We made a gasket for that interface , got everything lined up with a little difficulty and installed.

 

Possible problem - with parts lying on the garage floor for over a year, there was a possibility of the propeller shaft getting flipped end for end . . . any problem there? We've pulled it back out and reversed it without any change.

 

Oh, that brings me to the problem I'm having, starting out in 1st or reverse or downshifting 3rd into 2nd, there is a horrible shuddering and clanging; actually shakes the front end. It is almost impossible to get a smooth start. Pulling the floor and watching while moving the car, you can feel the shuddering, but the bouncing of the engine on the mounts I expected was not there. Engine mounts are probably original. Looking at the propeller shaft during movement I can see it 'bouncing' back and forth as it turns. I have a video I'll post shortly that will demonstrate that better than my writing. Maybe this movement is normal, as I've never looked at the propeller shaft during start up . . .

 

Any suggestions on locating the source of the vibration? I know this is hard when you can't put hands, eyes and ears on the car!

 

John

[desoto1939]

I would just replace the engine mounts if they are original as the first thing to see if this smooths out the running.  MAybe the DS has gone out of balance or when you took the shaft off you should have marked on both end a line on the DS and the pinion and also on the trans end so you you had put them back in the same spot.  I would suggest that you rotate the mouting flanges  a 1/4 turn clockkwise on both ends and then drive it to see if this might smooth out the ride. keep doing this until you get what you want.  This might be the cause of the problem.

 

Also does your playmouth have a vibration dampener on the engine. This also will help smooth out the engine. I know my 39 Desoto has one but not sure on the Plymouth.

 

These are just some thoughts.

 

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[JohnTeee]

Morning Rich,

 

Engine mounts are in bad shape:

 

 

Interestingly, I don't see evidence of the spacer assembly "SPACER ASSY -- 9-71-12" as shown in the Plymouth Parts Book

 

 

I found Upper and Lower Rear Mount replacements (as well as the front) at Roberts, but no mention of the spacer assembly being available. Have to get those ordered.

 

I know I'll have to deal with DS balance at some point, however, that's on the 'high speed' side of things. I'd like to be able to start from a stop without shaking the guts out of the old girl. Here's a link to a short YouTube Video  showing the 'twisting'/'oscillation' of the drive shaft on starting from a stop. Could this be weak springs in the clutch, creating an increasing oscillation?

 

Thanks for reading and the suggestions. It will come in time.

 

John

[Merle Coggins]

It looks to me that your "used" clutch disc doesn't have an even friction surface and is causing the chatter as it engages. Basically it grips and slips until it is fully clamped down by the clutch.

 

Merle

[Silverdome]

It looks to me that your "used" clutch disc doesn't have an even friction surface and is causing the chatter as it engages. Basically it grips and slips until it is fully clamped down by the clutch.

 

Merle

I Agree

[RobertKB]

It looks to me that your "used" clutch disc doesn't have an even friction surface and is causing the chatter as it engages. Basically it grips and slips until it is fully clamped down by the clutch.

 

Merle

 

Ditto.

[JohnTeee]

That's what I get for pulling something of unknown provenance off the shelf.   Thanks guys! Pulled parts off to TN Clutch tomorrow.

 

Any thoughts on the 10" Borg & Beck Clutch and Pressure Plate? Is that an application for the '47 Plymouth auto?

 

My '46-'54 Plymouth Service Manual appears to show application for all models for Borg & Beck 9-1/8" (6 spring), 9-1/4" (9 spring) and 10" (9 spring) clutches and same for "driven disc" (pressure plate?). 

 

 

Thanks!

 

John

[DJ194950]

Your chart shows the 10" pressure plate as special equip. use. Since your flywheel is drilled to fit it I see no reason the not use one if you want.

The chart also shows to match the 10" pressure plate with A 10" disc.

When you measure accross the press. plate face it should be equal sized to the dia. measure of the disc. plate!

 

Doug

[JohnTeee]

Morning Doug,

 

Both my installed flywheel and my 'original' are drilled for both sizes. By serial number, my engine/flywheel probably came out of a 1948-49 B-1-B Dodge Truck (probably rebuilt later, as the "T142" is over-stamped with "E17670"), other spare parts came out of a '53 MOPAR (guy told me he had '49 parts!) and a donor '48 P15, so it's hard telling the origin of my parts. 

 

I have a matching Borg & Beck 10" Pressure Plate and 10" Clutch. I suppose I should have it rebuilt before using, so I don't run into the same kind of problem I'm having now. Attempted installation of the 10" was, while the splines of the clutch matched both the input shaft and the alignment tool, it was a very tight fit on the input shaft. I was trying to decide whether I should possibly 'dress up' the splines of the clutch with a fine file, or . . . Maybe if it's rebuilt, TN Clutch could look at that.

 

Thanks!

 

John

[desoto1939]

I would not file the splines, if anyhting then just use some emery paper to clean it up to get rid of any rust. If you took off material then the clutch plate gets movement and do not want that.  Let TN Clutch check out the pieces.  I also have the Miller tool to remove  and install the pilot bushing. recommend that this be done when putting inthe new Clutch and PP assembly

 

The bushing tool also burnishes the bushing so that it is the correct inside diameter.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[JohnTeee]

Hi Rich!

 

I changed the bushing in 2005, a couple thousand miles at most on that. Er, uh, not having the Miller tool, I used the shade tree method of filling the pocket with grease, inserting an appropriate size bolt and whacking with an soft hammer. Can't recall how I inserted the new bushing, but I had advise from here, or the old site, rather.

 

Sounds like good advice. I'll see if there's gunk or rust built up and let TN Clutch have a look at it.

 

Thanks!

 

John

Edited April 3, 2014 by JohnTeee

[Don Coatney]

I suspect you have a throw out bearing issue amongst other possible problems. Is the throw out bearing attached to the fork with the correct springs as pictured below? Is the fork installed correctly to the ball joint? Is the throw out bearing new or used? Is your throw out bearing fully seated on the sleeve?  

 

Other possibilities. Is the clutch free travel adjusted correctly? Prior to the install did you do a test fit to insure the clutch disc slides on the transmission input shaft splines easily? Is the disc installed correctly as pictured with the raised center section facing the transmission not the flywheel?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DJ194950]

Some the truck/industrial uses ran the bigger clutch with a bigger ID on the throwout bearing colar to match a larger imput shaft OD and a larger OD on the bearing itself . That change made the  the ID circumference of the clutch fingers needed to be enlarged ( shorter fingers)  on the clutch. to accomadate the larger imput shaft.

 

Easy to check this with your stock type-size colar and bearing held against the 10" pressure plate fingers. Bearing surface should fully cover the fingers.

 

Just 1 more thing to check before sending out for a rebuild.

 

Agree if that if that checks OK,  to tell Tenn. clutch with your problem/concerns on the spline roughness before they rebuild your parts.

 

Doug

[JohnTeee]

Hey Don!

 

Lots to think about there and sounds like another good place to look. 

 

I will qualify this with, "at one point" the springs were in place and clipped into the fork, with the fork seated on the ball. That's not to say that we didn't knock something out of place during reassembly. I'll see if I can do some 'peeking' and otherwise, pull the trani back out.

 

Throw Out Bearing was new in '05, came with new springs and may have 1-2,000 miles on it.

 

Er, hum, how do I tell if it's correctly seated? I've got good, smooth clutch pedal action and can put it fully into neutral/disengaged. I probably need to adjust clutch free travel; saw that procedure, but got interrupted in the process by the bucking.

 

Test fit of the second/installed clutch was good on my spare trani input shaft . . . and yes, on the installed trani as well; had to think on that for a moment. We pulled the installed trani, set it on the bench and checked the fit. That was when we found the fit of the 10" clutch splines on the input shaft splines was a problem.

 

The clutch was installed with the legend, "Flywheel Side" to the flywheel and the raised portion to the back.

 

Thanks for all the ideas. Now, I'm not sure when I'll get to check them all out. I work the next several days, then leave on vacation. May end up being the end of the month before I can tear into it! 

 

Cheers!

 

John

[JohnTeee]

Well, just like a bad penny, I'm turning up again and popping this thread back up to the top.  

 

Sent the original clutch and pressure plate to TN Clutch and have finally got in installed and the car buttoned back up. As the pilot bearing and throw out bearing had something around 2000 miles on them, I left them in use.

 

It drives sweet! Still have some minor adjustments and need to recheck the timing, but I had it out driving today after getting it buttoned up.

 

Afternoon Drive . . .

 

It was 29F and the top has been sitting 'down' for a year. Could not get it up and latched. Drove it to Wal-Mart anyway.

 

John

[DJ194950]

At 29 degrees-could you use the dice for earmuffs??.

 

Drive em,!

 

Man you really wanted a drive!

 

DJ

[JohnTeee]

At 29 degrees-could you use the dice for earmuffs??.

 

Drive em,!

 

Man you really wanted a drive!

 

DJ

 

It wasn't that bad, at first, when the sun was shining a little higher. By the time I got home, my ears were quite chilled. Wish I'd thought of using the dice. 

 

John