Hot Starting Issues

[Jeff Balazs]

I set the float level lower a while back. I ordered a regulator on Monday.

When it arrives I will pull the carb and recheck all the settings.

 

Jeff

[55 Fargo]

Here is a reviews for Spectre fuel reg on Amazon. Not to complimenting of this unit, too bad because the idea seems solid..

 

http://www.amazon.com/Spectre-Performance-2517-Pressure-Regulator/product-reviews/B000CQ46H0

[Dave72dt]

Have you considered some louvers in the inner fender panel? How about some header wrap on the exhaust pipe? As far as sound insulation on the hood panels, it's not always how much you use but where you use it. Strips of it may be as effective as the entire panel for killing sound. I understand that it's not an option at this point but may be good reference for someone else

[jeffsunzeri]

I guess you get what you pay for regarding the Spectre regulator. I've had one in service for a few hundred hours and it seems fine. Better brands are available. Bottom line is that if the entire fuel system is not engineered to work together from the beginning, a pressure regulator is an essential component.

Edited March 12, 2014 by jeffsunzeri

[Jeff Balazs]

The regulator I am getting is a Holley fitted with a pressure gauge. It will be better and safer to know that nothing is being over pressurized.

 

Dave I like your suggestion about the inner fender. I had thought about it briefly and then moved on. It might just do the trick though.....and be fairly invisible.

 

I am pretty certain that I need to do something about the under hood temps. Even if it is not causing the hot start problem. I feel like I am definitely going to have overheating issues this summer if I get stuck in stop and go traffic. What I have built works fine at normal driving speeds and conditions. But stuck in traffic on a hot day.....well I can see now that my modifications so far are not quite up to the job. It is just going to take a few more tweaks to get it to work right all the time.

 

It seems like having the hard start episode a few weeks ago may have been a blessing in disguise. Up until this happened I thought that I had done all that was needed to have a reliable runner. Now I know that was not the case. I had seen the water temp gauge getting warmer than it should but the infrared gauge has made it clear just how hot things were actually getting.

 

Jeff

[Young Ed]

Are the pilot house inner fenders not louvered like my job rated ones?

[Dave72dt]

No Ed, they're not.

[Jeff Balazs]

If they were we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

Jeff

[55 Fargo]

I guess you get what you pay for regarding the Spectre regulator. I've had one in service for a few hundred hours and it seems fine. Better brands are available. Bottom line is that if the entire fuel system is not engineered to work together from the beginning, a pressure regulator is an essential component.

Yup, generally this is true, not puttin down, what you have , just looked uo this particular unit, and found the reviews.Glad it is workin out for you....

[Don Coatney]

If they were we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

Jeff

I suspect this conversation would still be happening. Other trucks do not need the louvers, why should yours?

 

Have you taken a spark plug reading when your engine will not start? What are your plugs gapped to? What brand plugs are you using? When did you last check your point gap? What condition and how old are your plug wires? Is your timing set correctly? How did you set your timing? Do you have any intake or exhaust manifold leaks? Is your gas cap vented?

[Young Ed]

I suspect this conversation would still be happening. Other trucks do not need the louvers, why should yours?

 

I agree with this. I cannot see how some insulation would drastically change the underhood temperatures. There is a lot of free air between the block and that insulation. Try everything else before you get to putting in vents.

[Dave72dt]

Don makes some good points which leads me to suggest validating your temp gun results by taking comparative readings from a truck without the added hood insulaltion, preferably side by side with the same running conditions.

[Jeff Balazs]

The engine actually runs fine. Autolite 306 plugs gapped to .035 New solid core wires. Points are fresh and set at .021.

No manifold leaks. Timing set at TDC. When I replaced the timing chain last year I went through the entire timing process as outlined in the manual.

The engine idles steady with a 21" reading on the vacuum gauge.

 

Besides the insulation on the underside of the hood the firewall is heavily insulated. I should mention that it seems like absolutely no heat is making it's way into the cab via the firewall. I seriously doubt that this is the case with most of these trucks.

Other changes and mods include the removal of the stock fan which has been replaced with a push type electrical unit. Removal of the stock fuel pump replaced with a Carter vane type electric and a new stainless steel exhaust system with a Magnaflow muffler. Also a new 6V alternator.

 

There is no real way I can do a side by side validation. What I have done as a way to validate my findings is to run a series of heat tests with the hoods closed and with them open. With the hood closed in warm weather the temps keep rising slowly until at some point it seems certain that the engine would overheat. With the hood open this is not the case. Temps are fairly level and do not show the rise. All of this is done with the engine idling. I know that this does not make a good example of conditions seen on typical daily drives. It does however closely simulate conditions one might encounter during one of our famous stop and go summer traffic events.

 

In order for me to feel like this truck is a honest to goodness daily driver here I feel it is necessary to make certain it can handle these sorts of extremes. Also I enjoy going to the desert where extremes are the norm. I really won't feel like this project is complete until this task is properly addressed. I can't really say if all of these trucks suffer from excess heat under the hood......but my guess is that put into more extreme conditions I have a feeling they would benefit from better under the hood ventilation of some sort. Either way I know my truck will.

 

Jeff

[_shel_ny]

Without re-reading everything, you were asked, and my take on this is that you have no shrouding with your replacement electric fan.

 

Is that shroud-less fan contributing some to your problem? 

 

Could you get a more effective flow of air through the radiator? (and thereby some more past the carb)

 

When the vehicle is not in motion there is no natural flow of air through the radiator.

 

I do not know how large (physically) your fan is, but knowing that air flow is critical for cooling when not in motion it may be another monkey wrench in your cooling problem tool box.

[jeffsunzeri]

In addition to '41, '42 and '47 trucks, I also operate a '41 Clarktor 6 aircraft tug. This tug runs the Chrysler industrial 6, exactly the same as the Dodge 218. It operates at idle and just above all day long on the hot tarmac never going faster than 10 mph, with air temps commonly over 85 up to around 100 degrees F. If anything gets heat soaked, this little fellow does, and the water and oil temps stay put without fail.

 

The whole point being, that if the mopar six is all in order, overheating is not an issue. The mopar flathead sixes operate in all sorts of applications from out in the noon-day sun in combines, to running flat out in the Arizona heat and they are among the most reliable and easy starters of any engine without any modification from stock.

 

If you're seeing the temps rise to the danger range (over 190 F) and you're not crossing the Sierras at 7,000 feet on a 90 F day with a full load, something is wrong with the cooling system.

 

Was the water distribution tube replaced? Block cleaned out? Radiator checked out ok? Why was the stock fan removed? Did it overheat when that was in place?

 

Bottom line is that overheating and hard starting with a stock mopar flathead six in good operating stock condition is pretty rare in my experience.

[Don Coatney]

Does that aircraft tug run on propane?

[jeffsunzeri]

No. It seems to run on just about anything else, though!  It gets automotive pump gas, 87 octane, and every now and then avgas 100LL.

[Jeff Balazs]

The fan is a 16" Speedway pusher type unit. No additional shroud was used.

I removed the stock fan to achieve a quieter running truck. And it is quieter..... especially at speed. It may be that the electric fan is not moving the same amount of air that the stock unit did? Seems like it keeps up when moving in normal traffic. I suppose I could put the old fan back on and run some more tests. Easy enough to leave the electric fan off to get a test.

 

The radiator was re-cored and is clean. I replaced the water distribution tube and cleaned the block. I flushed the system about a month ago to clear out rust that was suspended in the coolant. The water pump is new and I just put in a brand new 160 thermostat. The truck takes quite a while to get up to operating temp......at least 10 minutes and usually more like 12 to 15.

 

Jeff

[HanksB3B]

In addition to '41, '42 and '47 trucks, I also operate a '41 Clarktor 6 aircraft tug. This tug runs the Chrysler industrial 6, exactly the same as the Dodge 218. It operates at idle and just above all day long on the hot tarmac never going faster than 10 mph, with air temps commonly over 85 up to around 100 degrees F. If anything gets heat soaked, this little fellow does, and the water and oil temps stay put without fail.

 

The whole point being, that if the mopar six is all in order, overheating is not an issue. The mopar flathead sixes operate in all sorts of applications from out in the noon-day sun in combines, to running flat out in the Arizona heat and they are among the most reliable and easy starters of any engine without any modification from stock.

 

If you're seeing the temps rise to the danger range (over 190 F) and you're not crossing the Sierras at 7,000 feet on a 90 F day with a full load, something is wrong with the cooling system.

 

Was the water distribution tube replaced? Block cleaned out? Radiator checked out ok? Why was the stock fan removed? Did it overheat when that was in place?

 

"Was the water distribution tube replaced"  Jeff: "Slowly I turned...step by step""

 

Bottom line is that overheating and hard starting with a stock mopar flathead six in good operating stock condition is pretty rare in my experience.

 

jeffsunzeri,

 

Those are some great things to hear about our engines and good questions too. There's a little history when it comes to Jeff replacing his water distribution tube.

 

Sorry Jeff I just had to,

 

My brakes are still giving me problems if there's any truth to the saying "misery loves company"

 

Hank 

Edited March 14, 2014 by HanksB3B

[Young Ed]

The fan is a 16" Speedway pusher type unit. No additional shroud was used.

I removed the stock fan to achieve a quieter running truck. And it is quieter..... especially at speed. It may be that the electric fan is not moving the same amount of air that the stock unit did? Seems like it keeps up when moving in normal traffic. I suppose I could put the old fan back on and run some more tests. Easy enough to leave the electric fan off to get a test.

 

Jeff

 

The fan doesn't need to do much at speed. I would be interested to hear if anything changes with the stock fan back in place.

[Don Coatney]

When I first installed my JC Whitney pusher fan I mounted the fan on the brackets I made as pictured. The fan did not sit flush with the radiator fins.

 

 

I found that the fan did not cool as expected so I moved the fan mount to the other side of the brackets as pictured.

 

 

That made a big difference as now the fan pushes all the air through the radiator instead of around the fan plastic flange shroud. I also use a thermostat controller to turn my fan on and off at around 170 degrees. Controller is pictured below. I find that my fan shuts down soon after I hit 30 MPH even on the hottest days. It will turn back on at a stop light after a short time of no movement. On a really hot day if I have been on the freeway for a few hours and pull off the fan kicks on and my gauge sometimes spikes to 220 for a short time but never boils over and soon cools back down. I have never had hot starting issues.

 

 

[HanksB3B]

The fan doesn't need to do much at speed. I would be interested to hear if anything changes with the stock fan back in place.

 

Me too. I've got three and the six blade is what's on my truck kicks a lot of wind.

 

Hank 

 

Just saying if you need one I've got an extra.

Edited March 14, 2014 by HanksB3B

[Jeff Balazs]

Hank.......you and your pictures. Pulling that water distribution tube was my Mopar baptism by fire. Should have bailed then.

 

Don;

I do have the fan mounted flush......but no controller.

 

As far as the hard starting situation ... I am betting with your non standard manifold you probably won't ever see it. I feel certain it happens most often on the stock arrangement with the mating point of the two manifolds directly below the carb.   I am 95% certain the fuel in the float bowl gets percolated and floods the manifold. Not sure exactly how hot things need to get to have this happen. I would think that float bowl temps somewhere in the range of 160 to 190 degrees depending on fuel formulation could trigger this. Also excess inlet fuel pressure may be a contributing factor? It is just possible that the actual point for this event to happen may just be a few degrees hotter than what is normal operating temperature for these parts?

 

Jeff

 

Jeff

[Jeff Balazs]

Well........they say when you get older it get's easier to admit your own shortcomings. So here goes.

Ever since I got this old truck running I have thought that it ran a tad rich. I figured it was either worn or incorrect jets in the carb. I mean who knows what a PO had done with this thing? And it ran pretty darn good right? Wrong! What a maroon I have been.

 

I just got a new kit for the carb and in preparation to install a new fuel pressure regulator I removed it to inspect and check. Ok so here goes....and Hank feel free to add appropriate pictures to your response. What I found really has me concerned that I must have had a stroke or something. The float level was way off.....I mean it must have been set above the top of the carb. What a maroon! I can't believe it ran this way without gas everywhere. I am not sure what I did......and I have no rational explanation. Either I had a stroke or maybe my misspent youth is starting to catch up with me. Either way shame on me.

 

It is back on the truck and works so we will see what has changed.

 

Wow!

 

Jeff

[Don Coatney]

Don't beat yourself up too bad. The older you get the more senior moments happen. Glad you found what sounds like the real issue. Also....dahm, forgot what I was going to say.