331/354 Hemi in a 47 convertible???

[Guest MyHeadisFlat]

Hi guys.

Before I ask my question, I'd like to take a moment and acknowledge something - a number of you were wonderfully helpful awhile back when I was contemplating buying a 47 Plymouth convertible in need of some TLC - I genuinely appreciate your willingness to offer your knowledge and perspective to newbies to the vintage Plymouth world - a big thank you once again.

I did in fact buy it, and have been sitting and staring at it out in my garage and planning my attack for nearly two years now. The purists here are not going to be happy with me, but, as has been said, "you can't please all of the people all of the time". Gonna do a late 40's/early 50's Barris style Kustom treatment to it, including chopping the windshield and topframe (let the wincing commence LOL) About to launch into the project (body's going to part company with the frame in the coming weeks) and one of the options I'm considering is inserting a 331 Hemi in the hole under the hood (the other is going through and dressing the stock motor and stickin' a later overdrive trans in there). Here's my question:

Has anyone here actually put a 331/354 Hemi in a P15 (or dodge) of the 46-48 Vintage? If so, would you be so kind as to enlighten me as to just how masochistic an undertaking such a thing might be? I'm not fully committed to the idea just yet - it would be cool, but working the stock motor (230 crank, .080 over bore, cam, etc.) is also on the table. If I determined it would be an absolute nightmare to go with the Hemi, it might push me back to the stock driveline. In which case I'm hoping one of you might have an edmunds or tattersfield 2x2 intake you'd be willing to part with at a (at least somewhat) reasonable price - picked up an Edmunds head last year (paid all the money for it too, thank you very much) and need the right manifold to go with it. Not as crazy about the Offy's - not high enough for the look I'm after. And if there's a Fenton split exhaust out there in somebody's garage, I'd be a player for that too.

Thanks to all of you for providing such a wealth of information here for guys like me who are relative strangers to these cars - I have a feeling I'll be spending a lot of time here in the coming months

Oh - attached you'll find a "quick and dirty" digital rendering of where I'm heading with this thing. The car isn't red (it will probably be black with a white top and white interior, along with the requisite Caddy sombrero hubcaps and gangster whitewalls) - I snatched that photo off an ebay auction cause it was a good shot to work with. It is my goal to show the world that post-war Plymouths can look way cooler than might have been previously thought. I'm tired of seeing fords and chevys get all the attention

Opinions welcome. Heck, invited. Let 'em fly, I can take it

Almost forgot. My name is Bill. Thanks for havin' me

[Norm's Coupe]

It's your car and you gotta do what ya gotta do.

Check with Ed under the profiles for Down n Dirty Rod Shop for the engine swap. Also the book by Tex Smith titled "How to Build a Mopar". Ed has a 440 hemi in his 47 Plymouth.

Keep in mind I'm not a purist by any means. However, chopping the top on any fat fender car really throws off the looks of the car in my opinion. Looks like a fat piece (hunk) of iron that was squashed by a train falling on it's top to me. (you did ask for an opinion). I like customs except for the chopped top. The car would look better just lowered, maybe some skirts and drag pipes, then your modern wheels, if that's what you want. You could even french the lights, etc. if you wanted. But........again, it's your car.

Also keep in mind a convertible is rare in good condition. It's probably worth more not chopped up.

[claybill]

true words. once you mess with a stock convert, be prepared to loose money. all the $$$ you invest you can begin to deduct, ! you might try to spend $$$ on the re-doing of the 230 stock engine, and make it a showpiece and keep the body stock....i ahve a 46 convert that gets lots of attention with only dual carbs and smittys. and it appreciates every year.

i wouldnt mess with any body work you couldnt revert back to with a screwdriver and a crescent wrench.

look on ebay 1940 plymouth, there are a few st. rods there with chopped and frenched this and that.

my stock convert looks fat and chubby and cool lowered f. and r. with skirts.

and above all get a good canvas/cloth fabric top. not that plasticised vinyl top, like on the pictures you showed...

will send pics on request...claybill@galenalink.com

[Plymouthy Adams]

230 is not stock for a P15 Plymouth...

[Guest MyHeadisFlat]

Thanks for pointin' me to Ed - I'll see if I can find his profile - I can't imagine puttin' a 440 in was any easier than puttin' a Hemi in will be.

I respect everyone's opinion, no matter how different than mine it may be. I know I'm gonna get some flack about my plans for the car - especially because they built so few convertibles between 46-48 (about 15,000 out of more than 1.5 million P-15s). It's just that I'm completely infatuated with the digital renderings I've done of the car - I've always been drawn to chopped cars - late 30's early 40 convertibles in particular. Unfortunately, the Plymouth convertible in stock form doesn't get me "excited" - the lowered and chopped version does. Some of the Barris Brothers earlier works really get me worked up as well - I'll attach a few photos to this post to exemplify what I'm talking about.

No modern wheels for me - I'm old school/traditional all the way - red or black steel wheels with Caddy hubcaps. I have a "traditional" chopped and channeled 32 Ford pickup with a baby Hemi in it now - I'm runnin' 16" 40 ford wheels with big and little wide whites, juice brakes, lever shocks, and 3 large logo Stromberg 97s - I'll post a picture of that as well - it will probably go a long way to demonstrating why doing the Plymouth as a Kustom is so appealing to me. It's ultimate value is not my highest priority - I'm doing it because it brings me joy. Besides that, I'm not sure that a really well done Kustom won't be worth significantly more than a "restored to original" Plymouth convertible would be (Plymouth convertibles are almost ridiculously inexpensive compared to the Ford and Chevy brethren). Guess I'll find out somewhere down the line LOL.

At the end of the day, it's really a matter of realizing my vision for the car - I'm almost allergic to stock vehicles of any kind, and I believe I can create a Plymouth convertible with more eyeball than any I've seen to date. And it'll be done right from bumper to bumper - the rarity of the car demands that I give it the respect it deserves. Don't misunderstand me - I always enjoy seeing original cars, and I respect the time, energy, and effort it takes to do one right, but they're just not my "cup of tea", so to speak. I'm a hot rod/kustom guy through and through.

We'll see how right I was (or not) about the potential of this convertible as the process unfolds

[Guest MyHeadisFlat]

And a shot of how the Hemi would be set up if I go that way. Different color, but same setup.

Already have the Offy 4062 6x2 manifolds

Last shot is my 32 Ford. Fun stuff. Done "traditional" style - all period correct stuff - but it's done right. Whole truck was designed on a CAD program before we started construction. Amazing original cab (chopped and channeled the depth of the frame) on a completely custom chassis.

The plymouth will be done just as meticulously. Probably even more so, if that's possible. I promise

[Normspeed]

Welcome to the forum Bill. Like the others said, it's your car, do whatever makes you smile. I've heard that one area that causes a problem is the steering box. Not insurmountable though. You might check with these folks in Camarillo, I spoke with a fellow named Tom who seems to know a lot about early hemis and how to fit them into early Plymouths. Also, check this coupe, it sorta has the style you're going for. What part of the country are you in?

[/img]

[Guest MyHeadisFlat]

Cool car. A little rough, but cool

Looks like a Mercury behind it. 'Nother cool car.

Thanks for the business card. I'll give 'em a holler.

Central Florida. Just south of Ocala. 3 years now...

[Guest MyHeadisFlat]

This is one of the renderings that got me thinking this might be a good idea.

Whoever this belongs to has a very pretty car.

Ok, ok. Even in the before picture LOL

Have a great day all...

[Norm's Coupe]

No modern wheels for me - I'm old school/traditional all the way - red or black steel wheels with Caddy hubcaps. I have a "traditional" chopped and channeled 32 Ford pickup with a baby Hemi in it now - I'm runnin' 16" 40 ford wheels with big and little wide whites, juice brakes, lever shocks, and 3 large logo Stromberg 97s - I'll post a picture of that as well - it will probably go a long way to demonstrating why doing the Plymouth as a Kustom is so appealing to me. It's ultimate value is not my highest priority - I'm doing it because it brings me joy. Besides that, I'm not sure that a really well done Kustom won't be worth significantly more than a "restored to original" Plymouth convertible would be (Plymouth convertibles are almost ridiculously inexpensive compared to the Ford and Chey brethren). Guess I'll find out somewhere down the line LOL.

Again, I'm no purist. I've been to several NSRA shows in Louisville, Ohio, MN, and here in Wisconsin. Also grew up around these cars in the 50's/early 60's, so I've seen my share of chopped cars. Still never cared for a chopped top on a car or truck.

You sound like a lot of us who are not really not that interested in how much the car is worth, but just having fun in the hobby. I'm that way too, to a certain extent. However, there will be the day when I will want to, or have to sell my car. So, I have to think about that a little when making any changes. You mentioned you see lots of Chevy's and Ford's chopped and they still bring the money when sold. The important thing to remember in the old car hobby and street rods is this. Chevy's and Ford's are the most popular and everyone is looking for one of those. You don't see many street rodders looking for a Plymouth or some other orphan car. Based on that, there are a lot fewer potential buyers for the Plymouth and at least half or more are the purist. So, it's going to be harder to sell a chopped Plymouth street rod for what it's really worth. That even goes for a coupe that isn't chopped. I know one guy who had a real nice 48 Plymouth street rod and had a lot of trouble selling it for as little as $19,000. That was about 3 years ago and I think he's still trying because I see it advertised from time to time.

As far as doing a car in the Barris or Boyd Coddington style, I think they are over rated and not true examples of the vintage hot rods or customs. In fact, none of the real flashy street rods or customs are. Growing up in the era you didn't see cars look like that because the kids who owned them couldn't afford to do those things with their cars. Most of the true street rods, hot rods and customs were simply lowered, hopped up stock engines, drag pipes, skirts, shaved and maybe frenched if the guy was half way decent at body work. Most of the paint jobs were just in aerosol primer without a sealer. You did see a few chopped cars back then too, but didn't care for them then either. So, as far as I'm concerned the Barris and Coddington cars are not what the era was about.

Again though, it's your car. If that's what you like, go for it.

P.S. Guess I may be sort of a purist after all. Just a purist for true vintage type custom work.

[Rodger S-11]

Bill

I am of the ole school "sleeper mind-set".

1 ... your engine with twin exhaust out-lets. A dual in muffler and a single out.

1a ... the above with twin carbs

2 ... an 25" long block from the De Soto or the Crashlier

2a... #2 of the above with twin exh out-lets

3 ... any of the above with the fluid torque drive

4 ... an Plymouth 2 bbl Poly engine

5 ... any 2 bbl De Soto V8 w/o the spark plug cover

The Crashlier V8's all had more weight per hp/cubic inch than any of the De Soto V8's.

Uncle Rodger

S-11

COS

[james curl]

When Chrysler went to the hemi they went to a center link idler mounted to the front crossmember and moved the steering box on top of the frame with a drag link to the idler as the 53/54 Cheverolets did or a box like a 55 chevy or mustang with a cross link. A couple of the fourm members hade De Sotos and Chryslers of that vintage. Some of which have the front clip off and the engine out so you can see the steering setup. Are you can go the the library and look for old Motors manuals that show the steering set up. Maybe some of them might post pictures or links to their photo albums.

[Lou Earle]

First off understand I have 6 Plymouth's and one dodge ranging from 34 to 54

I have overdrive in one with stock engine and have 230 engine with duals ex and intake and shaved head and cam (out now going in another car)

I have one with nova clip and 350 350 - good set up

But to me the best is a 230 cammed compression increased and dual carbs and ex. With the stock 3.9 rear or 4.1 it to me is an ideal set up- 20 to 25 mpg real haul asser and then great cruising at 65 with overdrive. Look at it this way - you can do all this - heating up the flathead for about a grand then add In the overdrive complete for 1400and for about 2500 you really have great and cool looking ride. Then if not satisfied that stuff u can easily sell and recoup most of your investment.

and the car remains re doable. However if you go the v/8 route it will be awfully hard to go go back to stock.

Consider this - First just add the overdrive- I have one in my stock 47 coupe and it is fabulous. Cruise all day a t 65 - no changes just had to add the overdrive cable and the electrical. Do not even change the drive shaft.

Then do heads etc. I have a fenton intake if you want one with the linkage but I really think George Asche's is better.

I probably have a good dodge engine if you are interested.

Also befroe you chop the top drive it a bit- I think you will find it already low and a hasty chop might ruin your day. I have a 48 convert that i am going to keep stock.

Lou

[Norm's Coupe]

Lou's statement about overdrive just reminded me. You really don't have to find an old overdrive unit for the car. I've seen ads for somebody making and selling "portable overdrive units". By portable, I mean just that. They will fit any car and can be removed easily from one car to the next. The ads I saw were either in Custom Rodder, Rod & Custom or Goodguys. Don't remember if they had a price in the ad, but their phone number is there for you to call and get a price.

[Guest MyHeadisFlat]

Lou - check your PM. And thanks

[Fireball]

MyHeadisFlat welcome on board. This forum is GREAT, not only for the informational part, but the spirit. As you can see from the posts above, open minded people can have different opinions without a fight. That does NOT happen in so many many many other forums I'm part of.

This forum has so positive "atmosphere" whether you talk original, customized or inserting modern tech into old Moparium. That's the way I like it, and I like it here.

Now I stop slapping my hands against your back and back to your car;) I like your RPU, reminds me of my '27 tracknose roadster I built from scratch earlier.

I agree with others that chopping your ragtop doesn't do any good to the looks, and I still like customs. Carson top or similar are ugly to my eyes in so many cases. I was concidering even to chop my businesscoupe, the more I look it and the pictures of chopped ones, the more I lean towards keeping it original what comes to the height of roof.

Here's my project, mild taildragger

And this my '62 Lancer STW with flaked roof, blue flake tuck'n'roll interior

For the Hemi, go for it, thumbs up if you feel like converting it. To me any engine in these cars is cool as long as they are driven. Well maybe not Nissan diesels:D

[Lou Earle]

Lou's statement about overdrive just reminded me. You really don't have to find an old overdrive unit for the car. I've seen ads for somebody making and selling "portable overdrive units". By portable' date=' I mean just that. They will fit any car and can be removed easily from one car to the next. The ads I saw were either in Custom Rodder, Rod & Custom or Goodguys. Don't remember if they had a price in the ad, but their phone number is there for you to call and get a price.[/quote']

Those units are nice and work well for more modern cars. However unlike the original 52 overdrive You mist cut the driveshaft and also adapt either the old u-joint to the overdrive or the driveshaft to the new u-joint type.

I have made a lot of mistakes going "to far to early".

For example I wanted a good transmission in my 49 caddy so I removed the 331 engine and trans and installed a 500 ci engine and 40 trans- It is OK but I could have accomplished my goal with the perfectly good 33 and an adapter for 400 bucks. Instead for the nearly 2 grand I spent. Also now I will have one hell of a time going back to original- moved radiator - changed motor mounts etc. So my motto - is go slow and see how you like each change . I am really concerned about the chop- Sure you can go back if you save the pieces but be aware the convert windshield is already lower than the regular by a couple of inches. Your head clearance is a lot less in a convert and line of sight is right near top of windshield- and if you chop do not go near traffic lights- you will never see them!!

But if you chop save each part so someone or you can go back -It can be done - saw a 48 ford returned back years ago

Lou

[Don Coatney]

This is one of the renderings that got me thinking this might be a good idea.

Whoever this belongs to has a very pretty car.

Ok, ok. Even in the before picture LOL

Have a great day all...

This car belongs to Larry Catt. His car with a flathead also inspired me to stick with a souped up flatty long before I bought my car. Have not heard from Larry for a while. Hope he is OK.

[Guest MyHeadisFlat]

With your collective help, I've decided to forego the HEMI transplant and rework the stock driveline instead. A special thanks to Lou as his offer of the Fenton intake pushed me over the edge LOL. As I mentioned, I have an Edmunds head (and finned aluminum side covers from Vintage Speed) - I can go with either the Langdon's (Stovebolt) or Philips split exhaust, and now it looks like I've got a dual carb intake. That means the outside of the motor's in good shape. Per your suggestions (and a conversation with George Asche - what a great guy he is), I now know to go with a Dodge 230 crank and rods, bigger pistons, a cam, and some valve work (apparently stainless chevy valves fit right in if I understood correctly). Some ignition/distributor work (I've gotten a couple of different opinions there - more are welcome - please), and after that we're simply into engine compartment cosmetics (paint, more shiny stuff, etc). Behind all that goes a later overdrive trans converted to floor shift, and I think I'm good to go as far as the drivetrain is concerned. Apparently the above makes for a pretty "peppy" little six cylinder. Peppy is good. REALLY good

Let me know if I've overlooked anything. I imagine you guys know some stuff I wouldn't think to do. Let's hear it

Appreciate the welcomes and all the feedback - thanks for the pictures (some really cool cars out there), and your input. You probably saved me a pretty good sized headache or three. I owe you a collective beer or two LOL.

As far as the chop goes, I'm going to remain non committal for now - still REALLY like the look (I attached a picture of a lowered but unchopped version, and it just doesn't have the same attitude) but I'll get the rest of the stuff done first (motor, suspension, brakes, etc), get the body on frame, and see how I feel about it at that point. Leaning in that direction, but who knows. I'll drive off that bridge when I come to it.

Just wanna say once again that you guys are great - I'm looking forward to getting to know you in the coming months (and years for that matter), and I have no doubt you will all be an invaluable resource as this project unfolds. Thank you for you willingness to share your experience and knowledge of these cars with those of us that have none of either .

Gotta get some work done so I can pay for all of this stuff LOL.

Have an exceptional day...

[Young Ed]

Coming up in 3 weeks here in MN is back to the 50s. I've seen probably 5-6 p15 converts there in the past few years and never seen one with a chopped top. And those guys will chop up anything! In 05 there was a formal packard from the 30s with a 350 chev in it.

If I do see a chopped convert I will certainly snap a picture.

[Robin (UK)]

Hey Bill,

Welcome aboard.

I'm running a 47 Convertible, in the UK.

I love both stock P15s and hopped-up cars and I'd agree with most of the posts here...

Lower the car, go with the engine hop-up and add overdrive - but think VERY carefully before going with the roof chop.

The great thing about the P15 vert, is that the front screen is already chopped - it's only 12 inches high - and with the victoria hood, it already looks like a custom 3-window coupe with attitude.

If you go too radical, the car can look a bit comical and overstyled.

I'm running a Dodge 230 motor, with Fenton head, Sharp intake, Fenton headers, twin pipes with Smithys mufflers and Dodge overdrive tranny.

The difference in performance, compared to the stock car, is amazing.

And the sound is PURE VINTAGE!!!

Longer-term plans will feature a mild cam.

Body-wise, my car's stock, except for fender skirts dressed with 41 Buick trims, and blue-dot rear lenses. It rides at the standard height.

It's a vintage-style hop-up, but can go back to stock very easily.

Just my thoughts and preferences, but good luck with whatever you decide to do... and PLEASE keep us posted.

Robin (UK)

[Lou Earle]

be careful:

"Behind all that goes a later overdrive trans converted to floor shift, and I think I'm good to go as far as the drivetrain is concerned. Apparently the above makes for a pretty "peppy" little six cylinder. Peppy is good. REALLY good"

What overdrive are u going to run? The 52-54 overdrives are just perfect for the engine u are talking about- for that matter the overdrive is perfect for a stock engine also-I know _ i am running one behind a stock 218.

Before u switch to floor shift be reminded there are very few floor shift conversions available for Plymouth's of this era AND many have reported that the overdrive stuff on the trans get in the way of the conversion. Why don't you keep it stock 6 on the tree( yes Georges special switch gives you six forward speeds)? I say this because it is very easy to remover the stick on the tree but I am sure it will be hell fabricating a stick in the floor

Lou

[Tony_Urwin]

Read these posts with quite some interest- It's always fun to see how everyone stands on the whole stock/modified thing. I can appreciate both. Personally, I hate to see an especially fine original modified, but since most cars of our vintage are in anything BUT fine condition, I say, go ahead and do your thing.

George Asche is great fun and a great resource. You should make the trip to his place if you are ever near Pennsylvania.

I like your vision of the vert, but agree with others that a top chop is probably unnecessary. I'm a big fan of Harry Westergaard, a lot of his cars show that chopping is often not necessary.

If you like fender skirts, check out the fenders and skirts on the 1942 Plymouths. They are a bolt-on to the P-15. '49 bumpers are nice ,too, in my opinion.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I personally think the top chop would be an extreme amount of money that could well be spent in other places...as the top does stow away...put a good boot cover over it and ride...I have the luxury of inside storage on my car..and ammittantly does not get out often..I cand count on two hands with digits left over how many times the top has been raised...

[Dennis_MN]

When I was about 10 or 12, I had a neighbor who just graduated from High School. His brother had given him a 1932 Chev Convertible, yellow with dual side mounted spares in black fenders and a rumble seat. That was one sweet automobile. He and a buddy decided that they were going to make a trip to California and wouldn't it be fun to do it with a hot rod. So he dissambled the Chev and Chopped and channedled the body and mounted it on a Star chassis. He did make it run but he had no real ability and it was a piece of crap. He ruined a million dollar automobile. He could have started with an pile of junk and do what he did with that and he could have financed his trip to california and paid for the car if he had sold that chev first.

I hate to see perfectly good examples turned into junk when the junk yards are full of projects.

Dennis Sullivan