39 P8 suspention advice request

[scout]

Here is my coupe. It's rough it say the least. I've been gathering info and know of most of the basic options to get the front suspention where it needs to be. I found the cross member to be rusted through and will need to be fixed. I'm wondering if it's worh the trouble to remove it fix it reinstall it and still need $$$ in pats to run the stock IFS.  Here are some pics.

(It's titled and I also have the doghouse.) FRONT BOTTOM BACK

[scout]

A few more pics. Yesterday I tor the hubs down to the spindles and pulled the drag link to free up the king pins.

 

QUESTION? How does the asteering colum come apart? I got the Box off the frame and its loose from ther dash. I also removed the 3 screws behind the wheel and the wheel nut. Also the 3 bolts tha joint together at the cowl. Even the clamp band at the box. I tried prying it but no luck. What am I missing?

[desoto1939]

Scot:  I looked at the pictures that you posted. I would also be concernd about the rusting out of the frame onthe drivers side of the car.  I would first try to determine the cost of fixing the various items on the car versus buying a car that is already driveable.  I do not know what you already have in parts but from what i see you are going to have a large investment in parts and other body and frame work that is going to be some major dollars unless you can do all the work yourslef.

 

What also scares me is that you have the various jackstands under the car on the wheel rollers and these rollers are not choched to prevent the car from moving if you ever were underneath the car. It could roll onm you and is not a very stable situation.  I would either lower the car down so that it is sitting only onthe jackstands on the cement and would also have your floor jack up and under the rear pumpkin just to act as a safety item.

 

This is just my oprion only you have to make the final decision to continue or not

 

Rich HArtung

[blucarsdn]

I reviewed your pix. Quite frankly I think the car is just about beyond repair, the rustout in the front crossmember and the body will run into something approaching a small fortune.. That said I'll give you some advise on options to repair/rebuild what you have:...

All of the parts to rebuild the car are available, picking up a good replacement chassis would be the most cost effective way to solve that problem.. I have a complete front clip from the cowl forward, it needs rebuilding, however, it is not rusted away.. I also have two complete chassis.. The chassis' are in Montana, the front clip is in California.

An option to consider is changing the front end to an after market "hot rod" setup.. The front cross member in my '39 was very badly destroyed from beating across the gravel roads of Montana. I replaced it with a FatMan front clip.. Modern suspension, power disk brakes, and power rack-pinion steering, all for $2,200. FatMan is about the only sourse for front clips for the early Mopar vehicles...

Repair body panels are availible from the Plymouth Doctor, and other vendors..

During the course of the restoration of my '39 Plym conv cpe, I parted out three '39 Plyms sedans... I still have lots of parts for the 39's... Bill

Edited November 6, 2013 by blucarsdn

[scout]

I did'nt want to get long winded in my first post, as I'm new here. The extent of knowledge on this car cannot be matched anywhere else. So here I am.

The jack stands are bolted to the dollies and the dolly wheels lock. I later tied the dolly's together with angle iron, so they move as a unit.

The rust inside the drivers door is whats left of the rocker/door jamb. It looks like the frame but its not.

 

Can anyone help with the steering column question?

Wondering if anyone knows of a good donor vehicle I could use to swap out the front clip? I read Mustang II, Volare', even Dakota pickups. But there is more mis-information around than real information.

Thanks for your help.

[Old Ray]

The jack stands are bolted to the dollies and the dolly wheels lock. I later tied the dolly's together with angle iron, so they move as a unit.

 

 

Still a little sketchy.  

 

 

Can anyone help with the steering column question?

 

 

 

Help is always somewhat subjective and comes with misinformation as well. Case in point, I have not worked on this year / model of car, but for now you’re stuck with me. In other types of cars of this year that I have worked on, the steering column shaft is not separable from the steering box without disassembling it, therefore the column is removed usually as a unit with the steering wheel removed. (If that is what you are asking) A parts book or shop manual is a valuable resource.

 

 

Wondering if anyone knows of a good donor vehicle I could use to swap out the front clip? I read Mustang II, Volare', even Dakota pickups.

 

 

 

If you are going to change it, (the real experts, for good reason, like to restore the original one) and repair the frame damage then a MII is my choice.  

But not from a donor, way to many spot welds, many aftermarket manufactures make a stronger then OEM product.

 

 

 

But there is more mis-information around than real information.

 

 

 

 

  

Yes there is, but it is your job to sort through all the crap and find the answers that work for you.

 

(Tim and Don, am I still OK to stay here?)

 

 

[Don Coatney]

 

 

 

(Tim and Don, am I still OK to stay here?)

 

 

 

I think you are a good "fit" but check with Tim

[John Reddie]

There appear to be a lot of '39 Plymouth parts here.

John R

 

http://mooresautosalvage.com/parts.asp?division=2&make=Plymouth

[Dave72dt]

I would take an inventory of what you need for parts to rebuild the factory suspension, steering and brakes and do a comparative of a more modern system. I've got a Paul Horton's Welders Series M II system in my truck that went in easily.

Crossmember can be repaired in the frame. You sure have your work cut out for you on the car and sadly, it's condition is almost typical for the upper Midwest. Can you define your location any closer than eastern Iowa? I'm almost on the WI-Iowa border.

[Robert Horne]

I did'nt want to get long winded in my first post, as I'm new here. The extent of knowledge on this car cannot be matched anywhere else. So here I am.

The jack stands are bolted to the dollies and the dolly wheels lock. I later tied the dolly's together with angle iron, so they move as a unit.

The rust inside the drivers door is whats left of the rocker/door jamb. It looks like the frame but its not.

 

Can anyone help with the steering column question?

Wondering if anyone knows of a good donor vehicle I could use to swap out the front clip? I read Mustang II, Volare', even Dakota pickups. But there is more mis-information around than real information.

Thanks for your help.

I have a 37 Coupe that I sat on a Ford Ranger frame, long bed. Fit very nice.

[scout]

Thanks to all for your comments/advice. I think I'll pull off the body and look into repair of the cross member with intentions of using the stock IFS. Either way it will need to come out. I can repair it to stronger than stock in a few hours work. (hopefully)

 

Dave, I'm south of Dubuque about 20 miles.

 

John,  Thanks for the link to Moore  Auto Salvage. Looks awsome! Next time I go to Sturgis I'll have to check them out.

Edited November 7, 2013 by scout

[RobertKB]

This is going to be a very interesting thread if you keep the forum updated which I hope you will. That is one tough looking project but anything can be restored if you have enough resources and abilities. If you see a picture of blucarsdn's '39 Plymouth convertible when he found it in Montana, anything is possible. There is also a '61 Chev convertible someon restored that had sat in a watery gulley for over 30 years and is now pristine. Maybe blucarsdn can post a picture of his car when he started.

Good luck with the project and please keep us updated. Where there's a will, there's a way.

[blucarsdn]

RobertKB's comment about my '39 Plym conv cpe being a real challenge to restore is at the least, under stated...

I would advise you to think twice about using donor parts from Mustang II's Volare's, etc. to replace the worn-out suspension in your '39..

Many years ago before the aftermarket suppliers, Fatman, TCI,etc., became very good at making modern suspension for use on street rods, etc., the only game was junk yard parts.. It has evolved that used/donor front suspension can become a bottomless pit, not only do you have the expense of buying the used parts, you have the cost and time to fabricate things together, then you still have a used front end that needs mega bucks to rebuild...

In todays traffic, I think it is fool hardy to drive a vehicle that is borderline safe.. Of course if you want an old car to just putt around town in, never taking it out on the highway, have at patching your old out dated suspension together...

A word of caution about Moores in Rapid City.. I have purchased from them many times, my fenders and the majority of the stainless trim on my '39 came from Moores.. They are great people to work with, however, their web site has not changed in over ten years.. The majority of their '39 Plym cars/bodies has long been depleted.. Before you get your heart set on having and endless supply of parts from Moores, I would suggest you call them with your list of wanted parts.... Bill

[Robert Horne]

Each of us has our own ideas of what or how we want to proceed with our projects.

Suspensions from suppliers like "Fatman", are a big challenge also, and costs alot more

than using donor parts. To each their own, but I am a firm believer in buying a donor

vehicle, use what parts I can and junk the rest, usually comes out free parts...

[knuckleharley]

"Here is my coupe. It's rough it say the least. I've been gathering info and know of most of the basic options to get the front suspention where it needs to be. I found the cross member to be rusted through and will need to be fixed. I'm wondering if it's worh the trouble to remove it fix it reinstall it and still need $$$ in pats to run the stock IFS.  Here are some pics."

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

First of all,I want to say that you obviously don't scare easily. This is good if you like a challenge and either know how to do the work yourself,or are willing to buy the tools you need and learn how to use them. The reward you get in self-satisfaction will be worth more than the money you spend.

 

Having said that,if your plan is to have a bodyshop do the work,you are going to spend some seriousl money IF you can even find a body shop willing to take it on that knows what they are doing.

 

I have similar issues with both my 33 Plymouth coupe and my 42 Dodge business coupe,but neither are as rusty as yours. The Plymouth does come close,though.

 

I guess the best solution to the frame and suspension problem depends on what you want to do with it. If you plan on turning it into a modern street rod using the chassis from a 80's or 90's Ranger,S-10,or maybe even a Dakota would probably be a smart option. After all,even if you use a nice stock chassis you are still going to have to make and weld in new floors,and it's no harder to do this for a body on a modern chassis than it is to make and weld in a floor for a body sitting on a 39 chassis.

 

If your intent is to restore or just make a nice driver car that is close to what it once was,the only practical option I see is to find a comple original rolling chassis that needs no repair work. Maybe even look for one with an engine and transmission still in it if you don't already have them. The good news from your POV is that 1939 Plymouth chassis are not a high demand item,so you should be able to get one at a reasonable cost.

 

The front crossmember in my 42 Dodge is rusted out at the bottom,but not as bad as yours. I have been casually looking for a replacement crossmember for a couple of years now with no success. Nobody wants to cut one out of a complete chassis,so I guess I am going to just have to cut away the entire bottom and make up a new piece to weld into it.

 

I don't know about your car,but I suspect rats nest is what happened to mine,combined with sittting outside in the tall grass of a New Hampshire back yard  in the snow for about 15 years. Damn shame,because the car had been a one-owner car and parked inside a heated garage it's entire life until he bought it from the estate sale. It actually has less than 35,000 miles on it.

Edited November 10, 2013 by knuckleharley

[scout]

Hello fella's, Sorry i've not been back. Things have been hectic but I try to keep it moving forward. I seem to spend my "project fund" as fast as I get it. I did pick up some parts I found nearby and I've been looking at options. I need to explain my intent for the car even though it my get my thread removed. I have no intent what-so-ever to restore this car to origional or anything close. It wont see paint. I'm trying to decide how much driving I may actually do with it. Thinking a donor s10 with a with a 4.3L might be the way to go since they are easy to find for around 1K. That would be reliable wihtin reason and cheap to run. I have a good SBC 350 and th400. Mopar purists hat that thought. Doing burnouts out be fun though. It needs to safe. (reasonably safe) I have time. 

I do have a question. I don't have stock rims and I having a hard time finding track width information. I was looking into a Dakota donor but it has a 60" track ctr to ctr. The 39 has a 54" track as it sits. Somedays I think all I have is an old tin bubble with a title and the next day I smile just looking at it. 

[Robert Horne]

It is your project, do as you please.

The S10 with a 4.3, or even a 350/400 works great.

I have a 350/400 in a 1 ton Van, I may use in one of my 37s,

and I have 4.0 six/ automatic, 2wd Jeep Cherokee XJ, I have been thinking of using.

And now I found a Ranger v6/automatic, long wheel base, runs great, cheap.

The Ranger long wheel base is a good fit....

On rearends, Jeep Cherokee XJs, and Explorers, are a good fit.

I used a 95 Ranger rear in my 38, but had to use spacers....

[scout]

I did pull the drums and backing plates off. Got it down to the spindles. I found the steering box is bound up tight. Bearings shot and one kingpin is wore for sure. Amazing how easy things came apart even tough it sat without sheet metal for 30 years. With the steering box and crossmember gone I think a donor is the better way to go.

Edited February 1, 2014 by scout

[scout]

Hello again, I took a trip up to Sparta Wi. the other day and returned in heavy snow with this 39 Sedan. I young fella had it on CL. Like they say everything looks better in the brochure! He said the frame and crossmember were in nice shape. That was not the case. He would'nt consider parting it out. His dad wanted it gone. I got it for $300. The hood ornament, grill badge, nameplates and grill trim made me pull the trigger on it. Besides many other things I can use. Wheels, seat(?) rearview mirror, steering colum, ect. I rolled it off the trailer this morning.

 

I noticed the A arms on the suspension are not the same as on the coupe. Sedan ones are pressed and the coupe ones are forged. ?

Edited February 4, 2014 by scout

[Robert Horne]

Your $300 sedan looks similar to my $300 four door Plymouth parts car,

saved from the crusher. Scrap was worth more than $300.

Hood and trunk lid missing.

[blucarsdn]

I noticed the A arms on the suspension are not the same as on the coupe. Sedan ones are pressed and the coupe ones are forged. ?39 4dr.jpg39 badge.jpg39 ornament.jpg39 interior.jpg

 

I would suspect that the front "A" arms on the sedan have been changed.. The three '39 Plym sedans I've had, all eastern built cars all had the forged arms. My '39 conv., a western built car, LA, also had forged "A" arms.

I guess it is possible that Chrysler used different front end components on different chassis, however, I think it is very unlikely... Bill

[Lumpy]

I suppose there is no car that can't be restored, but looking at that one I'm thinking you'll be better off with something in much better condition. I think you'll spend a lot less money, even if you have to spend more on a better hulk now.

I don't think it's just the Mopar guys that don't like to see Ford or Chevy engines in Chrysler, Dodges, Desotos and Plymouths. I'm seeing more and more of a trend in the whole car hobby where it's just "preferred" to have a Mopar engine in a Mopar, Ford in a Ford, etc. I've been seeing more and more where perfectly restored cars just don't sell for near as much as they will with an engine from a different make. They just become less desireable cars. I'm seeing this with the old Fords especially. With Chevy engines in them they can hardly sell them for what it cost to build them. With a Ford engine, the bidding will be brisk, and they'll bring good prices.

Putting Chevy engines in anything and everything was for a long time quite a craze or fad, but I think now we are seeing that it is just reducing the interest, desireability, and value of the car. Kind of like a bat, which is neither a bird or a mouse, put a chevy engine in a Chrysler and it's no longer either of them. The Chevy guys hate it because it's a Chrysler, and the Chrysler guys hate it because it's got a Chevy in it.

Anyhow, there must be better hulks out there that would make a much better starting point. Even if that car was free, it's going to cost more in the long run. You might be able to buy a running car for what it will cost just to get that to the point where you can start thinking about running gear.

Just a thought. I could be totally wrong.

ken.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Lumpy

[scout]

Will the horn button pop out or how is it held inplace? I'll need to remove the steering wheel and pull the column at some point.

Still kind just waiting for it to warm up. Been working on the doors some,

[Jerry Roberts]

Here is how to remove the horn button on a 1939 - 1941 plymouth truck ;  Push the button in and turn clockwise . I am not sure which vehicle you have .