That Long, Sporadic, Occasionally Embarrassing 1949 Windsor Build Thread Plymouthy Adams Expects

[Young Ed]

I'm sure it will help to see. ... We've sort of hit the "embarrassing" part of this thread, since my original intent not to change the rear axle has been replaced with indecision about whether I'd benefit enough from the swap to justify the cost and the detour from original plan.

 

If and its a big IF I was doing an engine swap there is no way I wouldn't swap in a matching rear end. You will get a better ratio more suited to the V power and automatic transmission. Which should lead to lower engine RPM while cruising which leads to longer engine life and better MPG. Then there's the modern brakes and the ability to have a parking brake again. Also the option to grab a driveshaft with modern ujoints. I had to have my plymouth trailered home 300 miles last year due to a bad ujoint.

[GlennCraven]

Thanks, Ed.

[GlennCraven]

Just turned up a $125 Explorer axle with 3.55 gears about 45 minutes from home.

 

There's a $60 axle down in Oklahoma, but it's about 220 miles away, so I'd burn up all the savings in gas by going to get it.

 

Up in Minnesota and Wisconsin there are a slew of $50 Explorer axles. I've seen axles at coastal salvage yards for $500 to $700. ... Interesting how vastly the prices differ by region.

[DLK]

If and its a big IF I was doing an engine swap there is no way I wouldn't swap in a matching rear end. You will get a better ratio more suited to the V power and automatic transmission. Which should lead to lower engine RPM while cruising which leads to longer engine life and better MPG. Then there's the modern brakes and the ability to have a parking brake again. Also the option to grab a driveshaft with modern ujoints. I had to have my plymouth trailered home 300 miles last year due to a bad ujoint.

Ed - your experience makes me glad I spent the $$ two years ago to have Universal Driveline convert my Wayfarer to modern u-joints.

[GlennCraven]

Progress and problems with the '49 Windsor today.

 

The engine swap kit from Butch's Cool Stuff really is a nice piece of work, and with an experienced welder handling this while I watch and help (otherwise known as occasionally getting in the way and messing up the shop) the installation shouldn't be a problem. The welder is confident and that helps me be confident.

 

Unfortunately, while considering the rear axle swap and to facilitate welding the new motor mounts and transmission crossmember, we put the car up on the lift and really gave the underside the once-over, twice.

 

As I feared, there are rust issues I hadn't noticed prior to purchase. I was concerned about this after we finally picked up the car when the yard around the shed finally dried out.  But they aren't necessarily what and where I expected.

 

I was concerned that I'd underestimated the rust in the floors, but the builder and other employees at the shop commented how solid the floors are for a 64-year-old car. We punched them from below and they sure seem better than I thought the second time I looked at them (on retrieving the car); more like I the condition I considered them to be on initial inspection.

 

The trouble is, there's some rust in the frame and body mounts on the driver's side.

 

This car was undercoated. Don't know if it was when new -- I believe that was done even in the 1940s and '50s, though I don't know how frequently -- or if it was at some later point in life. In some places the undercoating remains remarkably intact, looking like it might have been on the car only a few years. In other places, it's flaking off or long gone. Which of course means that in some areas, we've peeled away what appeared to be good undercoating that was (of course) trapping moisture that entered from elsewhere rather than protecting the car.

 

The rust is significant in a few places that can be more readily just cut out and replaced, like the rockers behind the nice-condition lower trim pieces as some have cautioned. But it's also in a place or two that can't be as easily rectified. In one location, on the driver's side beginning about even with the leading edge of the door, there's a hole in the underside of the frame about the length of my hand. (I have good-sized hands; that's about eight inches.) The driver's side body mounts at the front and rear of the passenger compartment are also shaky.

 

The builder says he can box the frame rail at the weak point and he thinks it will be OK, but it's discouraging of course. I'm researching body mount solutions.

 

In other news, the gas tank is one of the areas in which the undercoating seems most intact. I'm not sure that's a good thing, though, because if any water got in at all, it's certainly been trapped. We'll find out later when I drop the tank and check it for leaks. But that's way down the road, now further down the road even than before.

 

And while nobody seems to know the last time this car operated under its own power, the rear Monroe shocks don't really look that old and are in fairly good shape, and the tires (beneath the mud) have a lot of tread and hold air very well. The tires, however, rub against the tie rod ends, which we didn't really notice until the car was lifted. The car rolls and steers so easily it's hard to believe it was rubbing or binding, but it is. So whether it was a bad choice of tire, wheel or both, whomever put this combination on there made a mistake.

 

I've taken some pictures that I'll upload to my Photobucket a little later this evening. I just stopped for now to vent before cleaning up and getting to work on a weekend of solution-seeking.

[Old Ray]

 

 The tires rub against the tie rod ends,didn't notice until the car was lifted.

 

Was the car lifted by the frame, which would let the wheels drop down and maybe rub (not a on the road normal condition) or lifted on a drive on hoist that lifts on the wheels?  

[GlennCraven]

Was the car lifted by the frame, which would let the wheels drop down and maybe rub (not a on the road normal condition) or lifted on a drive on hoist that lifts on the wheels?  

 

 

Good question. Lifted by the frame. But there's evidence of prior rubbing on the tires, which are clean and black on the inside side walls and muddy everywhere else. So it's possibly rubbing worse now that the suspension can sag, but it seems the tires did rub a little bit anyway.

[GlennCraven]

Picture time.

 

 

First, dangling the 360 in place to level things out and line up the locations for welding motor mounts and a transmission crossmember.

 

 

 

 

My reprint shop manual arrived in the mail Friday afternoon, too.

 

 

 

The position of the GM one-wire alternator will have to be adjusted to give fender well clearance.

 

 

 

 

My comment: "Wow, she's snug."

 

Welder's comment: "There's a lot more room than I thought there'd be."

 

 

 

Now the bad news. ... Ouch. ... Driver's side, beginning about even with the front door edge and running back about eight to 10 inches. The welder will box this with steel for now. ... While there is surface rust in many areas on the frame, this is the worst area by far and hopefully the only actual rust-through of the rails.

 

 

 

And the front driver's side body mount isn't good, either. (Nor the one at the rear of the passenger compartment, though it's slightly better than this.)

 

Many of the surface-rusted areas were missing their undercoating for some time. Many of the badly rusted areas were revealed by peeling away still-existing undercoating, particularly in the case of this body mount, where some of the undercoat can still be seen.

 

The inner rockers were just not good in general.

 

For a car that looks pretty good from the outside and that has better floors than you might expect for 64 years of age, this was disappointing.

 

[GlennCraven]

P.S. Learned something new about the auction-buy drivetrain. According to one of the guys at the shop who drove the truck it came out of -- which was destined for a Cummins conversion -- the 727 has a Cheetah Pro Street manual valve body. ... They make a dual auto/manual, but I don't know if that's what's in it. He was too busy shifting it and ripping up the highway around the shop to know if it would have shifted on its own.

 

So there's that.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Glenn..those body to frame transisitions are typical of the cars of the era 49-52 Briggs body bit the big one in design..Packard of the same era..same problems as their Briggs supplied body is made and supported in the very same manner as the Mopes..

 

That one pictures appears to be that of the main frame rusted out..tell me this is not so...this is major problem that needs be fixed before the ripping around with the V8 in place, I suggest a very close and detailed inspection of the chassis..

.did this vehicle sit with flat tires pressed into the dirt?

Edited September 28, 2013 by Plymouthy Adams

[GlennCraven]

That one pictures appears to be that of the main frame rusted out..tell me this is not so...this is major problem that needs be fixed before the ripping around with the V8 in place, I suggest a very close and detailed inspection of the chassis..

.did this vehicle sit with flat tires pressed into the dirt?

 

 

That's absolutely the main frame rusted out. When we found that, we went over all of the rest of it while on the lift and that appears to be the only part of the main frame that is in such a state. ... Not that "only" this much would be good news.

 

But yes, we have gone over the remainder of the frame, me, the welder and another employee in the shop. The welder suggests boxing that part of the frame with steel.

 

The car was never on flat tires or in the dirt since this seller had it. For a long while he had it under a carport and later he pushed it to the other side of his acreage and into a shed that had a concrete floor, picking up a lot of mud and grass on its tires along the way. But while he's always had it on rims and tires, he's only owned it a couple of years and that accounts for just a tiny fraction of its 64-year life. So it's entirely possible the car sat flat on the ground, or that this part of it did, for a length of time in the past.

[knuckleharley]

 

 

 

"Now the bad news. ... Ouch. ... Driver's side, beginning about even with the front door edge and running back about eight to 10 inches. The welder will box this with steel for now. ... While there is surface rust in many areas on the frame, this is the worst area by far and hopefully the only actual rust-through of the rails."

 

Glenn,I'm afraid I have even more bad news for you.  Boxed frames rust out from the inside. Chances are whoever sprayed the undercoating on covered up/plugged any hole that may have allowed the water to drain away,and the whole inside of the chassis at the low spots front and rear will be both thin and rusty inside.

 

The second part of the bad news is you can't weld to rust. Sounds to me like what the welder plans on doing is welding flat pieces over the holes  like reinforcement pieces by grinding down the surface rust on the bottom outside of the frame so the weld will stick. This is a reasonable strategy if the frame has just one hole in it and the original steel is still as thick as original. Not so good if the frame has rusted from the inside to the point where it is thin. Hit the "right" bump and your reinforcement plate will just fall down to the ground with the thin rusty section it is welded to.

 

You may want to get your welder to cut away the bottom "U" part of the channel maybe half-way up the frame rail height,and the make a new "U channel " the same size he can butt weld to the old chassis after welding reinforcement plates on the inside of the frame by drilling holes in it from the top and on the new bottom so he can make plug welds in both the top and the bottom after butt welding it along the seam.

 

To do this properly he is going to have to keep cutting away 6 inches or more of the bottom of the chassis until he gets to the point where the bottom is good and thick.

 

The other alternatives are to find another chassis that isn't rusted out,or find a good one in a junkyard somewhere and cut sections out of it to be grafted to your chassis.

 

It's not going to be cheap to pay all this labor,but it's a lot cheaper than it will be to sink a bundle into getting your car nice and on the road and then have the chassis fall apart on you and having to fix it then.

Edited September 28, 2013 by knuckleharley

[GlennCraven]

Thanks for that input, Harley.

 

The undercoating was mostly gone from the frame rails themselves, and while it's worth checking the thickness of the metal everywhere, the rails don't look nearly so bad anywhere else. (That doesn't mean there might not be problems inside as you note.)

 

The undercoating was generally more prevalent the higher up under the car you looked, but cracked in places and in places had been holding water.

 

What models would be most compatible frame-wise for a graft?

 

There's actually an early '50s Plymouth Cranbrook sedan on the property, but I know it sat on the ground at least for awhile recently. And I don't know if it's available. And it may still be too solid for some people to cut up.

 

It went through the auction but may have been one of the few that didn't meet reserve. (Or, like some, it may just have not been picked up yet.) ... It may have been supported off the ground in the past (the salvage owner would know) and it's resting on rims and tires now, but for the couple of weeks leading up to the auction it was on the ground like this.

 

Edited September 28, 2013 by GlennCraven

[DJ194950]

Check rhat new repair manuel to see if it has frame diamensions pages usually supplied for checking straightness after an accident. My manuel for 46-50 Ply. has those pages and are labeled with which models are the same.

I think that any Mopar car of the area may have the same width and possibly height in the only area really needed. Your frame seems to be made just like the ones on my 50 Ply's but the diamension May differ. If the wreck yard owner will lift the other mopar in the yard you could at least measure it and see.  If he is unwilling to steal frame parts for you at least it could expand your other possibily search for another.

 

Ye shall overcome, at least you're taking it in stride!

 

Best at ya,

Doug

[GlennCraven]

I'll look in the shop manual. I remember seeing something about frame repair and accidents when I was leafing through after opening the package. I must have overlooked that there might be interchange information between various Mopar makes and models.

 

Believe me, I was sick to my stomach after finding this on the lift. But after some advice in this thread and a chat with Tim, I'm at least consoled a bit that it's survivable if the repair is done right.

[GlennCraven]

Frame update, not good news.

 

The rust-through spot I pictured is still the worst we've found. There are other potential trouble spots and the driver's side frame rail may be thin along most of its length.  It's just a sketchy situation unless and until we pull the body off and sandblast the frame.

 

Tim very well may be right that the undercoating from years ago filled places in the frame that were supposed to allow water to escape. That and the car has probably sat on the ground for some time before this seller got it and put it back on inflated tires a couple of years ago.

 

The salvage owner said if it were his car, and he's built quite a few, he wouldn't go forward without removing the body, sandblasting the frame and seeing what he has. And at that point, unless we're surprised by how lucky we get, he'd really consider putting the body back on a replacement or custom frame.

 

For the time being, they're just going to set the car out of their way while I make some decisions.

 

I consulted this morning with the director of the local vo-tech auto body program, who knows pretty much everybody for miles around who works with cars. He suggested I speak with a guy nearby who has a day job, but who builds rods and customs in his spare time, including work for others. The vo-tech instructor said this guy doesn't take on many outside projects, because he doesn't want people's cars sitting around his shop undone. But when he does agree to your project, "he knocks it right out and the work is exceptional."

 

This guy could build me "any kind of frame" I wanted, the vo-tech instructor said. The cost, he suggested, was "not super-cheap (but) considering the quality of work it's really reasonable."

 

I showed the vo-tech man a bunch of photos of the Windsor and he understood why I bought it. (For that matter, so did the salvage guy and his shop workers, who all commented how "solid" it was when we rolled it in, before the lift.)

 

"Get a frame and suspension under that body," the vo-tech instructor said, "and you can do the rest."

 

Well that certainly makes it sound (overly) simple. 

 

I've actually bumped into the builder in question twice as he cruised around in his own cars.

 

Once at the shop of a local mechanic who also once told me what a great builder this guy is ... a 1959 Rambler wagon:

 

 

 

 

And, at the Casey's convenience store, this Volvo P-1800 ...

 

 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

O am still amazed at the number of people who refuse to add a bumper to their car...sure it shows the full curve of the body but at a 5 MPH impact its going to be a disaster...and the wheels on that wagon...great for perfect slabs of highway....O-rings tires...useless IMO on any car that sees daily use...but hey...I still own and appreciate original cave drawings

[GlennCraven]

I appreciate cave drawings, too. And yes, I have no use for the wheel/tire package on that wagon.

[Young Ed]

Glenn as much as this has to be a dissapointment for you I think I agree with the salvage yard owners assessment. Would you go with a custom frame or just have the custom guy completely repair what you've got? Otherwise I know some guys do manage to find more modern frames that work. I talked to a guy once with a 49 plymouth with some sort of early 70s GM frame underneath it.

[GlennCraven]

Glenn as much as this has to be a dissapointment for you I think I agree with the salvage yard owners assessment. Would you go with a custom frame or just have the custom guy completely repair what you've got? Otherwise I know some guys do manage to find more modern frames that work. I talked to a guy once with a 49 plymouth with some sort of early 70s GM frame underneath it.

 

Ideally I'll ask the guy to come out and look at the car on the lift. If he will and if he's as good as everybody says, he can probably not just assess the current frame situation (worth trying to fix) but also visualize solutions (compatible existing frames, custom frame, etc.).

 

From reading my shop manual -- which becomes less relevant with each major component replaced (sigh) -- the original frame is hardly complex. He could probably duplicate it or come pretty close, with upgrades like a modern rear axle (Explorer?) and maybe front end.

 

I know "Mustang II" is the popular way to go and probably (from talking to his endorsers) what he does much of the time. But my one reason besides cost for not wanting to change the original front suspension was how much I loved the factory look of the interior, including steering wheel, column and shifter, which are items I presume are not often retained by rodders. ... Maybe he can find a way to keep that stuff.

[Young Ed]

I have access to the full line of hollander interchange manuals. Let me know if you want me to look up what other models stock frames with swap with yours.

[DJ194950]

1949 chrysler C-45 4dr. and club coupe use the same frame.

1949 Chrysler c-46  4dr. and club cpe. the same

1950 Chrysler C-51 again both models 4dr. etc.

1950 Chryler  C52   same  both models  "     "

 Ok try to explain, now C-45 frames above interchange with the C-51's

                             the  C-46 frames above interchange with the C-52's

 

Maybe some to look for an replacement. No other Mopar frames use the same #, per 46-56 Hollander interchange.

 

Best

 

Doug

[Young Ed]

1949 chrysler C-45 4dr. and club coupe use the same frame.

1949 Chrysler c-46  4dr. and club cpe. the same

1950 Chrysler C-51 again both models 4dr. etc.

1950 Chryler  C52   same  both models  "     "

 Ok try to explain, now C-45 frames above interchange with the C-51's

                             the  C-46 frames above interchange with the C-52's

 

Maybe some to look for an replacement. No other Mopar frames use the same #, per 46-56 Hollander interchange.

 

Best

 

Doug

 

So to me that means he needs a 49-50 4dr or clup coupe that came with the same engine as his did originally which I believe would be a 6cyl in a Windsor.

[GlennCraven]

It was a six, yes. The eight-cylinder cars have much longer noses, of course.

 

And obviously I don't want to rob a frame from another restorable car. But maybe there's just a frame out there, or a car that was seriously damaged in other ways but the frame is intact.

 

Just noticed there's a '48 Dodge sedan with suicide doors and no driveline for $800, about 20 minutes from where I live. But that isn't a frame match.

 

Still, anybody looking for a '48 Dodge sedan? 

Edited October 1, 2013 by GlennCraven

[Plymouthy Adams]

while lots of folks will use a MIG in making frame repairs...it is highly recommend to use a good stick welder (arc welding if you will)