That Long, Sporadic, Occasionally Embarrassing 1949 Windsor Build Thread Plymouthy Adams Expects

[GlennCraven]

as I stated earlier..the Ron Francis model at the time I got one WAS NOT BUILT for the 727 it is actually for the TH350 and they ASSUMED it would be compatible..

 

I note the current Ron Francis site has a kit intended for the 727 and it says: "Know your transmission! This unit is not adaptable to other transmissions."

 

Went out to look over the car and discuss matters with the builder and shop owner this morning, and to let them know the missing parts are on the way. We did find one broken original weld near the front of the frame. The builder seemed fairly unconcerned, confident he can easily fix it as part of this welding process.

 

The builder suggested "cleaning up" the engine bay by moving the battery to the rear and removing a lot of clips, brackets, etc., that are unlikely to be used with the LA small block installed. How many of you have moved your battery to the rear on a Mopar of this vintage? Any of you small-block-swappers have trouble making room under the hood for a 12-volt battery and tray once the engine is in?

 

We also discussed a possible rear axle change, based on my readings of these forums and a chat I had here Saturday night with the good Mr. Adams. The yard owner said he didn't have a Dakota axle or full truck of the appropriate vintage, but could get such an axle pretty easily "and they aren't too high." (I've seen them generally from $150 to $300 on car-part.com.)

 

He does have one 8 3/4 Sure-Grip rear axle. He'd have to check and be sure what model year and ratio, but he recalled it was from a Roadrunner or Satellite. He'd sell that for $500 and based on our previous transactions, I suspect if I paid him his asking price, he'd have his builder put it in.

 

Comments on the pros and cons of an 8 3/4 Sure-Grip? ... As opposed to a Dakota rear? Or staying stock?

 

I've also read that without changing the axle, I won't have an E-brake. Is there any emergency brake solution if I stick with the original axle?

 

P.S. On the rolling package, ride-height, rake, etc., this is a Dodge, not Chrysler, but it's the sort of look I'd really like to go for.

 

 

 

Oops. I meant this one.

 

Edited September 23, 2013 by GlennCraven

[Plymouthy Adams]

Tim,

went back and reread Your post- Did not then nor now see a name mentioned, otherwise I would not have broght up his name( r.francis) as their does seem to be plenty of others now makeing them and the other mentioned is a electronically adjustable to match the trans and has a neutral/ park start  only feature.

Like I tried to imply do your own research- not suggested any one product.

 

Doug

Doug...I apologize..while I did not call the company name I thought I had included some initials..I see I did not...my error and am sorry for the trouble my other post caused you...for the record the unit that I did get from the company was eventually made to work but with a lot of special bracket work and odd positioning to allow the arc of the magnet to be positioned in the correct spot at the correct time to indicate accurately...just a lot of extra work on the user part for an item advertised to fit and work...that was all I was saying...I also found another model at a swap meet..it is generic and grabbed it and I do not recall the company name but I have not yet messed with it to see if it functions better or easier to mount and adapt as my current built is a 5 speed floor shift....I will be sure to report the results to the forum when I do.......

[Old Ray]

Sorry, I like the first picture better!  

Talking about rear ends, I have after much R & D been unable to find the wheel flange to wheel flange measurements for the stock axle in my ’53, I can find the track but that is an inexact specification to be using as a comparison for axle swaps, ……..there seems to be much interest in the explorer 8.8, very cheap, many ratios, and strong.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Old Ray

[DJ194950]

Tim, 5 sp. auto or manuel. Must be a newer auto out of your donor?

 

Doug

[Plymouthy Adams]

Not an automatic, this time around I went with a V6 SMPFI package with NV3500 close ratio 5 speed  and hydraulic clutch....3.55 rear gear..and ABS brakes......2004 donor drivetrain

[DJ194950]

That's why I asked since you stated you picked up another gear position sender. Not for this project then.

Talk to you more some evening about it on chat.

 

Doug

[Plymouthy Adams]

no..not for this project...but when I see an item at a swap meet that is a heck of a good deal..I grab it for the future...hope to see you  chat.....I drove 5 hours this morning..did some work at my dad's palce, fixed supper for 5 of us...cleaned the kitchen...about ready to settle down for the evening..maybe get to chat in a bit...

[GlennCraven]

Talking about rear ends, I have after much R & D been unable to find the wheel flange to wheel flange measurements for the stock axle in my ’53, I can find the track but that is an inexact specification to be using as a comparison for axle swaps, ……..there seems to be much interest in the explorer 8.8, very cheap, many ratios, and strong.

 

While one of our members reported getting his Ford axle for $75, in my area, according to car-part.com, Explorer axles are basically priced the same as Dakota axles -- $150-$250ish.

 

The Ford brakes are ABS and the Dakota may just be non-ABS drums (I'm guessing), but I'm not sure that's a huge deal. The Dakota's brakes would be better and cheaper to fix and maintain than the 1949 Chrysler drums and that would be the biggest braking advantage to any newer-vintage axle.

[james curl]

Be aware the Dakota drums are smaller than the originals installed on the old cars from the factory and mine are not ABS, just plain old brakes.  I installed a 90 Dakota rear end with 3.55:1 ratio rear gears on Tim Adams advice.  The only thing that I would change would be to a 3.08:1 ratio if I could find one.

[JerseyHarold]

While one of our members reported getting his Ford axle for $75, in my area, according to car-part.com, Explorer axles are basically priced the same as Dakota axles -- $150-$250ish

The prices on car-part.com are usually much higher than 'pick-n-pull' places.  I'd suggest checking the p-n-p yards in your area once you have a definite plan.

[falconvan]

^{That Explorer rear is the best bang for your buck on the market. Disc brakes, limited slip, and 3:73 gears for under $200. I'm installing my third one; this one in my 49 and several of my friends are using them, too.}

[GlennCraven]

Be aware the Dakota drums are smaller than the originals installed on the old cars from the factory and mine are not ABS, just plain old brakes.  I installed a 90 Dakota rear end with 3.55:1 ratio rear gears on Tim Adams advice.  The only thing that I would change would be to a 3.08:1 ratio if I could find one.

 

Yeah, I think 3.55 would be on the high end of acceptable for my application. From 1991 there were 3.21 axles. From earlier years, you could get 2.94 and 2.71.

 

I've seen disc brake conversion kits for Dakota rears, but the ones I've run across so far are pretty expensive, $700-$800.

 

 

The prices on car-part.com are usually much higher than 'pick-n-pull' places.  I'd suggest checking the p-n-p yards in your area once you have a definite plan.

 

A good point. I checked for the nearest pick-n-pull place and it's in Tulsa, only about an hour and a half away. A non-year-make-model-specific search feature priced rear axles at $79.99 drum-to-drum, which is half the price or less than those listed on car-part.com.

 

A bunch of the axles on car-part.com simply say "call" for price, though. Sometimes I may falsely assume that means "even more expensive." One might call and have them say it's $100 or $125.

 

Then fuel and time enter the equation. I would drive 40 miles for a $125 part already pulled vs. 80 miles for an $80 part I have to pull, so I'd definitely call all the places closer to me than Tulsa and see what they really want for theirs. ... In fact, I might do that today. There's a place about halfway to Tulsa that's never on car-part.com and has no Web site, but it's inventory is usually well-stocked and the prices are fair.

 

I don't hear a groundswell of support for the $500 Sure-Grip, so maybe pricing a Dakota axle is the way to go. I'd prefer to stay all-Mopar when possible. And I do recall plenty of people saying the original axle is OK if I don't want to race it. So the axle issue is mostly about modern brakes with readily available parts (and maybe a slightly better gear ratio) than about durability or reliability.

[wayfarer]

The 8¾ assembly is bullet proof but perhaps wider than most of 'our' cars really need/can use. I have widths listed on my web pages if you want to compare to your stock axle.

Given the relative cheap prices I am a fan of the 8.8 ford unit. They are very durable. As a side note, my understanding is that all axles from the 2-dr 'Sport' are positraction (or whatever ford calls it...)

[Old Ray]

GUYS !!!!!!!

 

Well the 8.8 item got noticed. but NOT my measurement request, (again) just because I’m too lazy, (and fat, and old) to crawl under there in the dirt, (snow soon) is there not someone that has this information, ……………..please?

 

.......or; help the rookie from committing a etiquette violation and a unintentional attempted high jack,  ......should I be starting a new thread with my request?

 

…and;

 

As falconvan mentioned (in very fine print) the explorer has disc brakes and although not a big deal it would probably require a master cylinder revamp.

 

 

[GlennCraven]

^{That Explorer rear is the best bang for your buck on the market. Disc brakes, limited slip, and 3:73 gears for under $200. I'm installing my third one; this one in my 49 and several of my friends are using them, too.}

 

I missed this post while I was posting earlier.

 

So is the Explorer axle just about spot-on for width with the original?

 

Is the wheel bolt pattern compatible with my stock front Mopar to easily buy and run compatible rims?

 

Do I have to fool with ABS (which all Explorers seem to be from my searching) or can I unhook the ABS contraptions and run the rear as straight power disc brakes?

 

Do you prefer the 3.73 for acceleration? Or other reasons? ... I should have plenty of giddy-up with this 360. I'd rather be longer-legged on the highway and could probably be happier with a higher ratio.

 

Thanks for the info. I love this place.

 

(Some of these questions may well be answered in previous threads so I'm using the forum search feature right now. ... And now I've re-read Jim Yergin's thread from earlier this summer on the installation in his wagon, and downloaded OldDodge41's Word document notes on his installation.)

 

Edit 3: I did just call several area salvage yards with prices not listed or that aren't even on car-part.com. They all fall in the same price range ($150-$250, mostly around $200) for an axle, Dakota or Explorer. Except the PNP for $79.99.

Edited September 24, 2013 by GlennCraven

[Plymouthy Adams]

The 8¾ assembly is bullet proof but perhaps wider than most of 'our' cars really need/can use. I have widths listed on my web pages if you want to compare to your stock axle.

Given the relative cheap prices I am a fan of the 8.8 ford unit. They are very durable. As a side note, my understanding is that all axles from the 2-dr 'Sport' are positraction (or whatever ford calls it...)

 

actually if you were to check the listing on Mopar 8 3/4 online you will find exact width and perches for a direct bolt in for a P15...however (always a however...lol) easiest install using stock perches on the marrow spring is capture mounts...simple and easy to make and install...if using the 8 3/4  pumpkins interchange...select your housing/axle and if needed, then select your pumpkin for the ratio you wish to go to..

 

As an added note, though the early Dakota had 9 inch brakes on the  8 1/4 axle, the 7 1/4 axle found on the Diplomat/5th

Ave cars are 10 inch brakes and are a bolt over change...

Edited September 24, 2013 by Plymouthy Adams

[knuckleharley]

As an added note, though the early Dakota had 9 inch brakes on the  8 1/4 axle, the 7 1/4 axle found on the Diplomat/5th

Ave cars are 10 inch brakes and are a bolt over change...

What's wrong with using the whole Diplomat rear? If all you are doing is driving the car and not drag racing it,I see no reason why the 7-1/4 gear rear axle wouldn't be fine,and there is no doubt they can be bought a lot cheaper than a 8-3/4 rear.

 

I can see spending the bucks to buy the heavy duty rear if you are running 300+ hp and can get traction and like to smoke the tires,but if you are running the flat 6 I don't see any problems with the weaker rear.

[Plymouthy Adams]

If the flange to flange of the Diplomat suits your build no problem..however the ratio of the Diplomat and 5th Ave may be a reason to think this over...I know the last of the 5th Aves had stock 2.32 ration gears in a 7 1/4 ring..for those retaining the flattie..this would be quite a challenge on pulling away let alone negotiating a start from an incline...while the Dakota did have ample ring size and better available ratios the rear brakes at 9 inch were lacking in my opinion and as I had a nice 5th Ave axle that would otherwise be just junk the brakes were top notch as new condition 10 inchers and well suited for my build...just food for thought for those that may want to go this route..I would never say it is a must you do this modification..that all rests with you, your build and the manner in which the car will be operated..

 

Now if you doing a complete drivetrain install with the V8 and automatic...yes..use it all and let the big dog eat!  Cruise will be nice, power adequate...tire burning truly lacking

Edited September 25, 2013 by Plymouthy Adams

[GlennCraven]

As an added note, though the early Dakota had 9 inch brakes on the  8 1/4 axle, the 7 1/4 axle found on the Diplomat/5th

Ave cars are 10 inch brakes and are a bolt over change...

 

Now this is intriguing. ... How "bolt-over?" ... I may be able to get an axle from a 35,000-mile 1987 Fifth Avenue for $100. I'd can find out with a call tomorrow.

 

I don't know what ratio, but 2.76 would be way better than 2.42. At least those are the two ratios that seem to be listed most frequently in the search. Anyone know if those were the only available ratios?

 

 

What's wrong with using the whole Diplomat rear? If all you are doing is driving the car and not drag racing it,I see no reason why the 7-1/4 gear rear axle wouldn't be fine,and there is no doubt they can be bought a lot cheaper than a 8-3/4 rear.

 

I can see spending the bucks to buy the heavy duty rear if you are running 300+ hp and can get traction and like to smoke the tires,but if you are running the flat 6 I don't see any problems with the weaker rear.

 

Based on how this engine supposedly performed in the shortbed truck from whence it came, I'm guessing its making 300 horses for sure, and maybe 400 tuned for performance. Of course, that will depend in part on my carburetor choice, as the seller took the carb off before running it through the auction. I'm guessing the carb from the initial build was a beast. I plan on just a 600 cfm Edelbrock Performer Model 1406.

 

 

 

If the flange to flange of the Diplomat suits your build no problem..however the ratio of the Diplomat and 5th Ave may be a reason to think this over...I know the last of the 5th Aves had stock 2.32 ration gears in a 7 1/4 ring..for those retaining the flattie..this would be quite a challenge on pulling away let alone negotiating a start from an incline..

 

Now if you doing a complete drivetrain install with the V8 and automatic...yes..use it all and let the big dog eat!  Cruise will be nice, power adequate...tire burning truly lacking

 

Lacking with a 2.32 or 2.42, I suppose, but 2.76 would be at least a little better.

 

I guess I'm not building a gasser anyway. ... But the HAMB drags each year are only about 60 miles away. 

 

And so after much chat -- THERE'S the embarrassing part -- it sounds like no high gear ratios for me. But I don't want to go too low.

Edited September 25, 2013 by GlennCraven

[Plymouthy Adams]

what advice do the hamber's give you on this build?

[GlennCraven]

I've not been asking them and relying on you and the folks here. I just have friends here in town who go the drags every year and say it's fun.

Edited September 25, 2013 by GlennCraven

[falconvan]

I missed this post while I was posting earlier.

 

So is the Explorer axle just about spot-on for width with the original?

 

Is the wheel bolt pattern compatible with my stock front Mopar to easily buy and run compatible rims?

 

Do I have to fool with ABS (which all Explorers seem to be from my searching) or can I unhook the ABS contraptions and run the rear as straight power disc brakes?

 

Do you prefer the 3.73 for acceleration? Or other reasons? ... I should have plenty of giddy-up with this 360. I'd rather be longer-legged on the highway and could probably be happier with a higher ratio.

 

Thanks for the info. I love this place.

 

(Some of these questions may well be answered in previous threads so I'm using the forum search feature right now. ... And now I've re-read Jim Yergin's thread from earlier this summer on the installation in his wagon, and downloaded OldDodge41's Word document notes on his installation.)

 

Edit 3: I did just call several area salvage yards with prices not listed or that aren't even on car-part.com. They all fall in the same price range ($150-$250, mostly around $200) for an axle, Dakota or Explorer. Except the PNP for $79.99.

I think the 8.8 is 59"' I haven't measured one in a while but they do fit perfectly in a 49-52 Mopar once you move the spring perches. No need to mess with any ABS, just hook up your brake lines. Mopar and Ford wheel bolt patterns are the same. I like the 3.73 for acceleration. Plus brake pads and rotors are a stock auto parts store item and cheap.

[GlennCraven]

I think the 8.8 is 59"' I haven't measured one in a while but they do fit perfectly in a 49-52 Mopar once you move the spring perches. No need to mess with any ABS, just hook up your brake lines. Mopar and Ford wheel bolt patterns are the same. I like the 3.73 for acceleration. Plus brake pads and rotors are a stock auto parts store item and cheap.

 

Thanks. This helps.

[falconvan]

Sure, no problem. I'll be installing mine in my 49 before long and posting pictures if you want to take a look.

[GlennCraven]

Sure, no problem. I'll be installing mine in my 49 before long and posting pictures if you want to take a look.

 

 

I'm sure it will help to see. ... We've sort of hit the "embarrassing" part of this thread, since my original intent not to change the rear axle has been replaced with indecision about whether I'd benefit enough from the swap to justify the cost and the detour from original plan.