Bench Bleeding M/c In Car????

[Dodgeb4ya]

Who rebuilt and installed the master cylinder? The stainless sleeve must be loctited in-done by a pro shop. Was it assembled 100% correctly with the proper style cups? Did you keep the stock 1/4" steel brake lines? Are the lines new? Do they leak? You must examine every fitting and hose very thoroughly. These fittings, lines and hoses cannot show the tinyest bit of wetness!  Are you losing any brake fluid level and pedal height after pumping up the brakes and holding hard pressure against the pedal for 2-3 minutes minimum.

To eliminate a shoe clearance issue I crank the minor adjusters tight and recheck for a higher pedal.

I'm tired now Jon. Some things like your brake issues are really hard to fix over the net. This ought to be enough questions for you to answer right now ...

Bob

[Plymouthy Adams]

Someone here stated by changing out the brake lines that my troubles would be over and as far as I can tell it was just a waste of 100 dollars and a lot of time.  No noticable difference in the brakes.  Oh well lesson learned and now to the next lesson. 

 

at no time did you follow a systematic procedure as I and countless others here tried to help you on the forum and myself by way of phone and the many many PM's I could well post here from my archieves that others can read and well see what I tried to do and the fact that you never once did any test, follow the outlined procedure or basically ever try to do right..you took to this problem like a guy hunting a field of rabbits..shooting off a scatter gun in every direction with no registered hits...and if my telling you to do the lines did in fact lead you to finding a copper line...well..if it did not save your life it is possible it may benefit other motorists on the highways....

 

I am very sorry you do not have brakes but nothing anyone and I do mean anyone here on the forum  could say to save you from yourself as you chose not to follow advice, outlined procedures and basic Shop 101 mechanics...further after it has been to countless other paid professional in your area with no improvements at all and also another Mopar owner with the right tool assisting you, which might I add you deemed improper as you went back and adjusted without the tool after he left...it will take a 100% start from scratch to observe and record what you have on your car, if it is right, adjusted proper and bleed in a proper manner.  Lastly, you never ever did the test to see if the rear hose was ballooning nor even replace the hose as it is only 6 years old by your account to me in a PM.  

 

You cannot guess with brakes, you cannot just willy nilly do this or that without regard to how the part functions (adjustment of the MC to be less than full return by your own report to me on the phone)

 

My parting suggestion to you is to get the book and read on the operation of hydraulic brakes and the role each part plays in the system and actually try to learn how your car is supposed to work.  I have said it many times, you need to know how it works in order to make it work.  I daresay we have 100's of members here that do their own work and yet somehow they get their brakes right, many without the benefit of the 1750 tool..but yet, you still have no marked improvement.  Many adjustments that not correct per the book and so forth and so on.  I still have faith that YOU could really do this job if you were to stop your old antics, and actually apply some troubleshooting, proper application of outlined procedures and adjustments.  Let the dogs chase the rabbits...you got a car to fix.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Plymouthy Adams

[james curl]

For JIPJOBXX

 

 From my manuals for the 36-42 Plymouth and the 48-54 Plymouth I find that the 42 has no brake components that will interchange with the early or later cars except the front wheel cylinders with the earlier cars.  By components I am referring to the four wheel cylinders and the master cylinder.  The master cylinder bore on the 42 is the smallest in diameter of all of the cars listed here.  Front wheel cylinders were the same from 36 through 42 but the rear wheel cylinders are different.  Yours calls for a 1" bore to the leading shoe on the rear and 1 1/8" bore on the trailing shoe.  The 36 through 41 cars use a rear wheel cylinder with a 1 1/8" bore for the leading shoe and a1 1/4" bore for the trailing shoe.  If you some how got earlier wheel cylinders on the rear you master cylinder will not displace enough fluid to operate the brakes properly.  If by chance you got later wheel cylinders on the rear with a straight bore of 1 3/8" and not stepped as your 42 is you still would have the same problem only more so.  The 48-54 master cylinder is the same in appearance as yours but uses a 1 3/8" bore where yours used a 1 1/8" bore.  So from this you can see that one must have the correct components installed for the system to ever function properly.  And since we can not visually inspect and measure the components installed in your car any advice that we can give you is not worth the time it takes to post it as we haven't a clue as to what is installed on your car.

[JIPJOBXX]

Thank you for the information and I ordered and had new 1942 Wheel cylinder brakes and had them installed.  I would hope that the company that I ordered them from gave me the right product.  As far as the master cylinder goes I checked with our local parts dealership for the proper size rebuild kit and they assured me that was what I got.  Now to the guys who know just about everything about brakes why did I not see a change in my brake system when changing the size of the tubes?  As far as following direction you must think I have never worked with brakes befor and that is dead wrong.  But the one thing I did do as I followed the manual to the book.  I started with change out of the shoes and new springs and of course had my friend use his expensive tool to set the major adjustment.  THAT WAS THE FIRST STEP!  NEXT WAS TO BLEED THE SYSTEM AND TRY TO GET OUT THE AIR! THIS DID NOT WORK AND THIS IS WHERE PEOPLE HAVE STATED YOU MUST FOLLOW THE COURSE FROM A TO Z!!!!!  ACCORDING TO THE BOOK I DID JUST WHAT IT STATED!  STILL HAD PROBLEMS SUPERSEDING THE MANUAL!  IT'S BEEN A RUFT ROAD JUST TO TRY AND FIGURE OUT SOMETHING THAT NO ONE REALLY COULD PUT A HANDLE ON.  SO I HAFT TO READ UP ON HOW HYDRAULICS WORK??? GIVE ME A BREAK THIS A 1942 DODGE NOT A ROCKET! SO I CAN LISTEN TO AND READ ALL THE COMMENTS BUT WHEN THE FINAL CURTAIN COMES DOWN BECAUSE I HAD TO EXPERIMENT AND GO OVER THINGS A FEW TIMES THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I'M A DUMB MECHANIC I JUST HAVE TRIED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WENT WRONG WITH THE BRAKES AND HOW TO FIX THEM.  AMEN 

[_shel_ny]

Time to step back and relax a bit.

 

Jon, you have worked hard at this project, and have correct some problems.

 

I am not going to re-read this complete thread to see all suggestions and work done.

 

I am not a mechanic, and do not profess to be one.

 

My only thought on this is that "air", unless there is major "air", is not going to allow the pedal to drop to the floor.

 

The only time that I have ever experienced such a problem,(other than a broken brake line, or a wheel cylinder that was toast) the master cylinder was the culprit. 

 

I know you have spent time in that area, but for the pedal to move and not displace the brake fluid where it needs to go, to me, points to the insides of the master cylinder. Wish we were located closer. I would loan you a rebuilt master.

Edited July 31, 2013 by shel_bizzy_48

[Roger the Dodger]

I think you need to measure the size of the new wheel cylinders you installed. Member James Curl gives details of sizes. There are multiple posts on this and other Forums about wrongly supplied parts. A lot of trouble but these are the parts you replaced in a working system. Are they correct ?

Keep at it. Roger.

[JIPJOBXX]

Ok here is where I stand with my old Dodge and the brake issue!  Got the car back from the garage and the brake pedal is up to where it should be and you do not have to pump it to get the brakes to work but as always its still spongy!  I know a lot of people here think I'm chasing a monkey around a tree but its the only thing one can do in this case.  I plan on taking the M/C apart and see if I happen to cut any of the rubber goods inside the unit the last time I rebuilt it and recheck the bore size with a tri-mic.  I have a brand new rebuild kit ready to install to complete this operation.  So the wheel cylinders are the right dimension, the shoes fit perfect and there is no more spring noise coming from the brakes themselves.  Oh after I have the M/C unit disassembled I will take it over to a machine shop and have them check for proper dimensions.  I have made sure that the rebuild kit is for a 42 Dodge and that the cyclinder itself is out of 42 Dodge also.  And after all this I will re bench bleed the M/C in place and take it back to the shop and have them bleed the system once more time.  Can you believe it that I have almost 800 dollars in this project or more??? Oh well its my only old car and I have had it for 25 years and so thats not bad.  Glad to have it back in my garage and under my control. First thing I did yesterday was to give a proper wash job and park it for the weekend!!!!

1. Brake shoes  $140

2. Brake cyclinders $260

3. New brake lines and fitting $125

4. Two M/C rebuild kits $40

5. Labor for first and fluids at first brake shope $55 (Power bleed)

6. Labor and material at second shop $250 (Installed new brake cyclinders, bleed down the system and adjusted minor shoe adjustments.

7. Rebuild kits for old brake cyclinders $50 ???

8. Brake fluid by the car load $50

9. Brake srprings $40

10. Brake bleeding material parts $20

11. Future bleeding maybe free????

12. Drums reground but when first rebuilt brakes $40

13. New rebuilt m/c from Hagens about 100 dollar way back when with stailess steel sleeve-should only have around 2,000 miles on the M/C itself???

 

If anyone has the proper dimentions of the length of the bore of m/c that I could use. I know the width

[JIPJOBXX]

Well cross my fingers and pray to god that I almost have my brake system up and working correctly!!!!!!  My brake pedals is at the right position and I can stop the car but still it has air in the system!!! BUT I had it power bleed when I had it worked on it in that shop.  When I took it home it still had air in the lines and thought I might have to check out the master cyclinder but I called up a professional brake shop and was about to take it to them for another evaluation.  But the young mechanic on the other end stated to me that in the past after they power bleed a system they usually complete the job by the manual way of bleeding.  He thinks it just residual air and not much of it and stated just to bleed the car off normally.  I have done this so many times that I could do it blindfolded but at least this time the pedal is all the way up and everything seems to be to factory specification.  So my car is jacked up and on four car stands with my special bleeding device in place and tomorrow morning it will be launch time for completion of this jipjob.  Should work as it makes sense to me.  Jon

Edited August 5, 2013 by JIPJOBXX

[JIPJOBXX]

I know it didn't take a rocket scienetist to make up this extra reserve reservor device but maybe someone else might just want to make up the same device.  I had a spare M/C cap and drilled and tapped 3/8" hole in the top and installed a pipe nipple and then reducer fitting from haft inch to the 3/8" nipple.  This allows a person alot more fluid to be used in bleeding the M/C unit than the small reservior that is built into the unit itself without running out of fluid in the M/C.. 

[JIPJOBXX]

Done done with the brakes!  After all the rework and new parts I have got the answer!!!! I had my wife sit in the frount seat and she said a pray for my old car and you what it worked!  But befor god got in the picture I did rebleed the brakes with my wifes help and just kept going around and around till the pedal was all the way to the top.  I took it out and the brakes worked but were grabbing on drivers side and so I thought if I got any oil what soever on the passenger side this would cause that to happen.  An sure enough I took the drum oft the passenger side and replaced the new shoes with the old ones which were almost new anyway and took it out for test spin and all the brakes are working perfect.  Who said that testing was not the answer to this problem as I beg to differ with that person.  This has been an uphill road but now the brakes are working good and now on to the next problem??  Oh I did rebuild the m/c again and that might have helped but who knows?  Like I stated it has been the perveriable monkey chasing his own tail around the tree but I got it finally.

[Dodgeb4ya]

I always ask Jim and Tammy Baker for their blessings. The two never have failed me. God bless you Jim and Tammy!

Edited August 9, 2013 by Dodgeb4ya

[Frank Elder]

Amen to that brother......