40P10touring sedan Posted May 28, 2012 Report Share Posted May 28, 2012 I'm looking at carbs for my twin Ellis manifold and can readily find these weber 32/36 progressive rate carbs new and used, but, having to use an adaptor to fit them to my manifold...holley to single carb....wouldn't that decrease or restrict the flow thru the adaptor? Thoughts/suggestions, gentlemen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted May 28, 2012 Report Share Posted May 28, 2012 your engine itself can only suck/pump x-cfm say about 237 CFM max..word is that going twin carbs the smaller carbs when using two and the better choice is with the Studebaker Carter series as used on the 170 CI to run twin progressive you will have to have one deep breathing cam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40P10touring sedan Posted May 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2012 A}your engine itself can only suck/pump x-cfm say about 237 CFM max..word is that going twin carbs the smaller carbs when using two and the better choice is with the Studebaker Carter series as used on the 170 CI B}to run twin progressive you will have to have one deep breathing cam A} While I'm not discounting your input, I've been told by a few others that max is somewhere around 390cfm for the big engines... B}...that was a thought...possible crank rod offset grinding...oooh, I don't know... I know a guy with an old datsun 280Z that has a set of twin weber 32/36's that he's looking to get rid of...the reason I ask here as they could be had for a reasonable price though they'd need to be gone thru. They're DGAV 5s and would cost $270. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted May 28, 2012 Report Share Posted May 28, 2012 (edited) I was not privy its seems to a bit of info here..there is no input on the size of your engine and your user name is for a car that would be equipped with a 201 engine..and unless you are racing you will not be sucking any great volume of air... using formulas designed to aid folk in the building of their engines and figuring some of the unknowns, we have the following.. lets say you are operating a 230 CI at 4200 sustained rpm on the street...that is 238 CFM needed..if racing the formula will change for the deep breather and will yeild you a need of max 307 CFM...everyone seems to overcarburate..it's not hard to do thinking more is better.. so if you say big engine...265 cubes..say again 4200 sustained rpm..we looking at 274 CFM and if you put a good cam in here it will rise to..354 CFM a 318 running at 5000 for the street is only in need of a 391 CFM Edited May 28, 2012 by Tim Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austinsailor Posted May 28, 2012 Report Share Posted May 28, 2012 Give Tm Langdon a call. He's very knowledgeable about carbs and these motors. I've forgotten the reasons he explained those web era were not a good choice, but he can make sense of it. He does have some progressive 2bbl carbs, new I think, at under $200 a pair that are sized just right. (unless he's sold them all) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted May 28, 2012 Report Share Posted May 28, 2012 Give Tm Langdon a call. He's very knowledgeable about carbs and these motors. I've forgotten the reasons he explained those web era were not a good choice, but he can make sense of it.He does have some progressive 2bbl carbs, new I think, at under $200 a pair that are sized just right. (unless he's sold them all) From your posting I must assume you have met the engineer Tom Langdon and discussed at length the carburetors, fuel flow, and such. I had the unique displeasure of meeting Mister Stovebolt Tom Langdon in Detroit this past weekend. I made an attempt to discuss some of the timing problems I have heard about with his Mopar HEI conversion distributors. I was telling him about what Marty has done to make his engine run when Mr. Langdon interrupted me in mid sentence and told me in no uncertain terms that he is an “engineer”. And that anyone who has a problem with his equipment should call him. He had no interest in what I was telling him and promptly told me that he has all the answers and nobody on the Internet knows what they are talking about. I have done business with him on a couple of items in the past but I will never do business with him again. I do not have all the answers but I don’t like to be talked down to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40P10touring sedan Posted May 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 I was not privy its seems to a bit of info here..there is no input on the size of your engine and your user name is for a car that would be equipped with a 201 engine..and unless you are racing you will not be sucking any great volume of air...using formulas designed to aid folk in the building of their engines and figuring some of the unknowns, we have the following.. lets say you are operating a 230 CI at 4200 sustained rpm on the street...that is 238 CFM needed..if racing the formula will change for the deep breather and will yeild you a need of max 307 CFM...everyone seems to overcarburate..it's not hard to do thinking more is better.. so if you say big engine...265 cubes..say again 4200 sustained rpm..we looking at 274 CFM and if you put a good cam in here it will rise to..354 CFM a 318 running at 5000 for the street is only in need of a 391 CFM My fault, the Ellis twin intake in question is for a 265 cu in long block - I should've put that in the 1st post! Sorry. My 3 friends did say "390cfm, MAX" because at the time I was considering a single holley 2 bbl so I simply used that as a vague reference towards any single or combined carb set up....and I do agree that with carburation more isn't always better...just kills gas mileage. You seem pretty darn knowledgeable about carbs...any idea what the cfm flow is for those webers or, say, a B&B single? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40P10touring sedan Posted May 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 Give Tm Langdon a call. He's very knowledgeable about carbs and these motors. I've forgotten the reasons he explained those web era were not a good choice, but he can make sense of it.He does have some progressive 2bbl carbs, new I think, at under $200 a pair that are sized just right. (unless he's sold them all) I did email him about whether his cast twin exhaust will fit my 25" block, or if his HEI dizzy will fit my 25" block and what carbs he would recommend for my Ellis intake...almost 2 weeks ago now, and no reply as of yet. Oh as of last I saw{mind you- 2 weeks ago}, he "was" out of the weber 32/36 progressive carbs that everybody liked{says he can't find any more}, but had an alternative for them. I found quite a few of them on ebay, however to be fair, they may not be what model/type he was refereing to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 the single B&B CFM has been posted here and it would take a bit of research to find but the 32/36 Weber flows 300 CFM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40P10touring sedan Posted May 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 ...the 32/36 Weber flows 300 CFM Ok, "2 would easily be over kill"! Thanks for the very valued input sir, my search continues then for something better.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40P10touring sedan Posted May 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 Don, aren't you running twin B&Bs?{as I recall...please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 these were recommended as replacement carbs for the 258 cu in Jeep 6 I believe that works out to 4.2 L the 230 is 3.7L (201 would be 3.2?) The dual webers most folks use are the similar but smaller ones from the 1.6/2.0 L Ford 4's. which would more closely match the flow rewuirements based on similar displacment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 I wish I could refer you to the article I read about what are the better carbs for the dual intake for these engine but all I can remember is that they did recommend the single smaller carbs as used on the smaller Studebake 170 CI engine..their combined total CFM for a modified 230 engine was rated just right..and I did not recall anyone mentioning a rejetting being needed.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40P10touring sedan Posted May 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 these were recommended as replacement carbs for the 258 cu in Jeep 6 I believe that works out to 4.2 L the 230 is 3.7L (201 would be 3.2?) The dual webers most folks use are the similar but smaller ones from the 1.6/2.0 L Ford 4's. which would more closely match the flow rewuirements based on similar displacment. I did see some of those smaller rated ones on ebay for the old dodge omnis...think those were 1.8 L ....2 would equate to a 3.6 L ...shoot, those might actually be too small!{dang, I can't win today!} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40P10touring sedan Posted May 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 I wish I could refer you to the article I read about what are the better carbs for the dual intake for these engine but all I can remember is that they did recommend the single smaller carbs as used on the smaller Studebake 170 CI engine..their combined total CFM for a modified 230 engine was rated just right..and I did not recall anyone mentioning a rejetting being needed.. I do that too....saw something somewhere and find someone who could use the info but I can't remember for the life of me where I found it or all of it...your not the only one- I do apprieciate the thought effort though! I didn't get the chacne this weekend to pop the head off of my 265 to check bore size and wear and at the moment{really} I'm trying desperately to remember where I saw the info about what was done or could be done to the 265s rod journels to gain a few more cubes thru an offset grind and recenter to add a tad more stroke ...dang it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 Tim, I believe most of the Studie Champ motor Carters had the smaller base similar to the ones that Mopar used withthe economy engine. so the would not fit the intakes without some mods or and adapter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 use of the Webers would have required an adapter...there are always changes and trade offs on any and all modification...this is what makes them no longer stock.. I went to my old manual and read through the carb section and could not find the actual bore size and such...finding data for this era is a bit hard to just look up and or find..most times it's something you stumble across more than anything else.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austinsailor Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 Don, I haven't met him in person, but have talked to him a number of times over the past year and a half. I did get the impression he felt he was an expert in the area, I can't say anything he told me was known by me to be BS, but then, I know so little in the area he could have and I might have not have known it. But everything he said seemed to make sense. I guess time will tell. I do have a very nice Edmonds dual 2bbl manifold he sold me at an attractive price, a set of headers for my 25" motor he custom makes and they look top notch, and a pair of progressive 2bbl carbs I bought from him that I think will work well. I still haven't had a chance to assemble it all, so how it will perform is an unknown at this point. So, at this point I think I'll sit on the side and wait to see how this build turns out. Hopefully, in the next few months I'll get mine together and add some real life results to the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40P10touring sedan Posted May 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 I agree, the 265 oem single won't fit on the base of the Ellis...too big. Neat thing about "no longer stock"...we don't strive to make it "modified", we strive to make it "better". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenbomb Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 You mentioned a Dodge Omni- my '87 Plymouth Horizon was a carbureted 2.2L, as were many K-cars. FWIW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 Don, aren't you running twin B&Bs?{as I recall...please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong} I am running B&B's. I have a pair of Carter Webbers mocked up but I have not yet installed them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 I have never stated the 32/36 progressive will not work..only that in general selection they could very well be too much if your engine is not built to take advantage of the flow, so quite the contrary in my opinion they should when jetted properly..the max flow of CFM will be at WOT and in the progressive that would be both primary and secondary circuits open..now in normal situation you are running only on the primary circuits of each carb and that is a 32mm bore per carb for when two carbs are used should be plenty of air flow without yet being excessive..and in max position and the secondary side of the carbs 36mm open should fuel your deep breathing cam..do keep in mind that this will be over carburation if your engine does not have a cam/valve/exhaust that will take advantage of the extra fuel getting these jetted to match the carbs for your level of engine build will be your biggest headache and do remember these carbs are very sensitive to being properly sync'ed..do not even attempt any fuel jetting unless they are in sync else you will not be getting the proper fuel mix. An air flow meter is a necessity. I have had a number of folks say they have their carbs syn'ed by ear and while they be close some times, the actual sync using a meter and follow up test drive makes a believer of them every time. a little tip here for selecting idle jet and how to know if you are small or large or just right..a bit of copy/paste Simple Rules for low speed calibration If the mixture screw is more than 11/2 turns out turns then the Idle jet is too lean (too small). When the mixture screw is ½ turn or less, then the Idle jet is too rich (too large). These assumptions are based on the fact that the speed screw setting is not opened more than 1/2 turn in. If the speed screw has to be opened1/2 or more turns then this is also an indication of a lean condition usually requiring greater change. At times it may appear to be showing signs of richness or flooding it is really a lean condition. Please understand the need to keep throttle plate as near to closed as possible so as not to prematurely expose the transition holes. This is what causes the visible rich condition, and confirms the need to increase the jet size. JET KITS are available if needed. EXAMPLE With the idle speed screw set at no more than 1/2 turn in after contact with the stop lever; and the best idle occurring with the idle mixture screw set at 1 1/2 turns from lightly seating, indicates the need for a larger Idle jet. Achieving the best idle at less than 1/2 turn indicates the need for a smaller idle jet. if any contemplates going with the weber's you will need to red up up on tuning and basic rule of thumb in jet selection..I ran dual weber years ago on a rather peppy engine for excellent performance great economy while driving normal and they stayed in sync better than any other dual carb setup I ever messed with...of course the linkage is the big plus here..it has to be built to operate smoothly and be heavy enough to take repeated opes without slipping..it is always best to have a center point for the throttle..never but never try to operate the linkage from any single carb point..only from the common pull point.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claybill Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 with all this carb talk....i have a box of carbs set up for the small 2.0 ford 4 cyls. if interested...email me and we can talk.. $1.00 plus ups.! bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 Excellent posting Tim, thanks for shareing. For those not in the know getting multiple carburetors in sync has nothing to do with idle speed nor air/fuel mixture. It is all about air flow. Insuring that the carburetor throttle butterfly valve linkage is adjusted correctly. To do this requires an air flow meter as pictured below. In this case your ear is no substitute for the air flow meter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeBop138 Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 40P10---if you noticed when you picked up the engine, the Chrysler has the twin Carter/Webers from Langdons---he sells the adapters to mount these on your Ellis. With 70 thou off the head--bored 40 over and a re-grind on the cam---the C/W work fine---if anything they might run a little lean at WOT. I took them out of the boxes and put them on and have zero problems since. I did run those on that engine you have and they ran just fine. Granted I had my intake made by Moose to match the C/W bases---bet is with the adapters it will run OK.........Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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