It's "no go" after second attempt...

[Jim Saraceno]

I put cylinder 1 at TDC, checked to make sure both valves were closed, so I know I was at the firing position. Pulled the distributor, put in new points, adjusted the gap, cleaned the rotor, replaced the cap, re-installed the distributor, adjusted timing to TDC, re-installed each wire, one by one to make sure they were all going to the right place, turned the key, pressed the starter pedal (it's a '35 with the floor pedal), it turns over but gives no indication of firing.

Does anyone have any suggestions for where to go next?

[Normspeed]

You might try a quick hot wire from the battery negative post to the coil negative post, and try cranking it. (the other post, coil pos post should be wired to the distributor). This bypasses the wiring through the ignition switch. If it starts, remember that turning off the key will not turn off the motor, you need to disconnect the hot wire to shut it off. Been there....too many times:D

[Lou Earle]

1Make sure your battery is fully charged- overnight I put a 2 amp automatic charger on a depleted one and it take over24 hours - the 6 amp charger never really give is a deep charge- driving does.

2- I do this at night- remove the dist cap have someone push the pedal see if you Can see the spark.

I can do this in day but night is better.

3 Remove a plug and ground it and turn it over with ignition on see if it sparks.

If all above are positive it is something other than ignition I think. the plug grounded eliminated the cap and the rotor and the wire and the plug the spark at the points in the dist eliminated the coil and etc- not to run but to get started.

One trick I use is to turn engine over with no power to dist - when getting ready to fire up a rebuilt engine- I turn it until I see some oil pressure indicated on the Gage.

Pour some gas in the carb and see what happens. Hold palm of hand over the air intake and get that gas into the cyls . It should fire

I got a hunch it will start. I do not use starter fluid on new rebuild - just afraid of it.

Most imortant- if you get it running run it at 1800+rpm for at least 40 minutes - yes these old ones need to be run right away. Why? because that is what they did then and it still is the best way to start the break in routine.

Good Luck

Lou

[JIPJOBXX]

Do you have juice at the points? You can check this real easy by just taking a screw driver and opening point with it of course make sure the key is on. You should get a little spark by grounding out the screw driver. Also while doing that take the main coil wire out of distributor and hold it about 1/8" to a 1/4" to any part of the engine(Ground) Now turn key back on and take your screw driver and ground out those points again. You should see and maybe even feel a charged of electricity that will come out the coil wire to where you ground it! Don't be surprised if you get a little shock in the process (Maybe where some rubber gloves) Good luck

[jd52cranbrook]

At the risk of just jumping in here in spite of the all the advice you are getting.

I hope your twisting your distributor to different locations, (advanced, retarded). Just because you have the gap and other settings correct, you cannot adjust timing until up and running. I'd go from one extreme to the other and listen for it attempting to run. One half inch of rotation can make a world of difference.

I realize I'm kinda new on this board, but before you go to all the special tricks you read on here, I would go to the basics first.

Keep it simple.

[Jim Saraceno]

Thanks for all the suggestions, however, I think I covered all of them except changing timing. I have a tool such as the one in this picture and I put it in place of #1 spark plug and there is spark so I know the problem is not in the coil, points, rotor, cap etc.

The thing that bothers me is I would think that if there were spark and gas, I would get something, a backfire, sputter, something, but I'm not. I just don't get it.

[jd52cranbrook]

Again I say, a half inch turn on the distributor can make a world of difference.

[Jim Saraceno]

Spark is definitely not the issue. I had all the plug out, sitting on top of the engine with the wires attached. I turned out the lights and watched as all the plugs fired.

I've got to admit that I haven't tried moving the timing yet but I'm willing to try anything. If the goal was to get it to start easier I'd move the distributor CCW to retard it? Is that correct?

[James_Douglas]

Jim,

1.Take out # 1 plug.

2.Set timing to TDC.

3.Take length of rubber hose and blow into #1 cylinder if you can blow it is 180 out. If you can not blow it is TDC.

4.Have helper crank over engine and look for spark on #1.

5.If spark...Put plug back in and then put starting fluid in carb and try to start.

6.If it tries to start, but does not, then fuel is problem.

James

[jd52cranbrook]

Spark is definitely not the issue. I had all the plug out, sitting on top of the engine with the wires attached. I turned out the lights and watched as all the plugs fired.

I've got to admit that I haven't tried moving the timing yet but I'm willing to try anything. If the goal was to get it to start easier I'd move the distributor CCW to retard it? Is that correct?

Doesn't matter which way you turn it. Maybe make a mark where it sits now for reference. You can always turn it back to it. What have you got to lose? And it is the easiest, less dramatic change you can make. Just loosen the distributor bolt a bit and leave it.

I know, it's easy to sit here and give advise and not actually there doing the work. I say try moving the distributor as that is what I had to do to get mine running last year after re-wire.

Take your time, good luck, have a bit of patience.

[jd52cranbrook]

Jim,

1.Take out # 1 plug.

2.Set timing to TDC.

3.Take length of rubber hose and blow into #1 cylinder if you can blow it is 180 out. If you can not blow it is TDC.

4.Have helper crank over engine and look for spark on #1.

5.If spark...Put plug back in and then put starting fluid in carb and try to start.

6.If it tries to start, but does not, then fuel is problem.

James

Thats a great way to get on #1 cylinder.

[JerseyHarold]

Jack up the rear of the car so you have gas flowing by gravity to the fuel pump. Might be dry. Also, remove your plug wires one by one, then reinstall them one distributor terminal 'off' from where they originated. Remember the firing order is always 153624 from wherever #1 is. Try to start and see what happens. If it doesn't start, move wires one terminal to the rear of where each originated and try again. You can also move the wires 180 degrees from their present location (wire at 9 o'clock goes to 3 o'clock, etc.) and see the result. Something simple is keeping the engine from running and if you play with it enough you'll fix it.

[greg g]

So I will be a dead horse jockey. Are you sure you have fuel?? When you have pulled the plugs, if they are not firing at the correct time the plugs should be wet after cranking the engine a lot. Are you getting fuel when you work your accelerator? It seems with spark at the plugs you should be getting a pop or backfire once and while at least. Have you taken the topof the carb off to assure your float bowl is full? Even if your timing gears/chain were off a tooth or so, the engien should still run. It may not have a lot of power or rev well but it shudlstart and run.

Frustrating stuff to say the least. Take a break sleep on it and you will hopefully prevail.

[Jim Saraceno]

Thanks guys for all the input. This one is getting really frustrating. As far as fuel goes, when I pump the throttle, I can see gas squirt down the carburetor so I know fuel is getting there. As far as spark goes, I've had all the plugs out and watched every one of them fire. I've checked and rechecked the timing, it is set at TDC. I've checked and rechecked the plug wires to make sure they are in the right position (right order, clockwise). I've even resorted to starting fluid and still nothing. The battery is fully charged and I also supplement it with the "starting" feature of my battery charger.

Today, I'm going to check the valves according to the tech section. I've checked the valves before but used a different procedure, the procedure in the tech section is done by setting pistons 1 & 6 at TDC, that should tell me if I managed to mis-align the crank and cam gears. I also plan on checking the compression just to see if that tells me anything. I'll give the timing some adjustments and maybe play the change the wires one space then 180 degree game.

The one thing that really bothers me is the amount of effort it takes to turn the crankshaft with no plugs in the head. Someone gave the figure of 35 ft/#s and though I have not measured it, it has to be much more than that, especially just before #1 & 6 are nearing TDC. The extra effort it takes to move it that last 1/4 turn makes it tough to get TDC lined up. I can't drive it backwards because it will bust the crank bolt loose.

Again, thanks for all the advice, you guys have been really great. Don't worry about beating those dead horses on my account, I keep thinking it is something really simple that I overlooked.

[JerseyHarold]

Slightly OT but worth mentioning here (actually probably worthwhile for the Pilothouse forum as well)......There was a book published in the early 1970's titled 'Truck' by John Jerome. It's the story of the author's rebuild of his 1950 Dodge B1B pickup, all in the pre-internet age. Very well written (Mr. Jerome was an automotive writer and former editor of Car & Driver). Anyway, he also couldn't get his engine to start after rebuilding it, and in his case the plug wires were 180 degrees off on the distributor cap.

Keep trying, Jim. It will eventually fire and you'll feel great as you watch the oil guage rise for the first time after the motor starts.

[Normspeed]

Jim, even if the cam timing were off, you should still get a pop back thru the carb here and there. Also when cam timing is off you usually get an uneven cranking rythm because the motor will try to fire when a piston is traveling up on a compression stroke. This one has me scratching my head, sure wish I lived closer. Sometimes an extra set of eyes will pick up on some simple thing that's out.

[Jim Saraceno]

My, my, my, what a strange development this is. I put together all your suggestions and kept checking things over and over. The one that startled me was when I put a rod in the hole over #6 cylinder, it didn't top out when the mark on the balancer aligned with the pointer on the cover. It topped out about 15-20 degrees past it. I looked at the timing chain cover from my old engine and look at the difference!

The black one is the rebuilt engine. Anyways, as you can see, the pointers are in different places and the marks on the damper seem to align closer to the pointer on the old engine than the new one. So I reset the timeing as I was 20 degrees advanced. By the time I got things changed I looked down the barrel of the carb and saw a big pool of gas sitting there. I'm letting that dry up before I mess with is anymore.

Has anyone else had this problem?

[jd52cranbrook]

I'm not gonna say nuttin:p

[builtfercomfort]

Oil may have been washed off the bearings by the gas? Worth squirting some extra oil inside? Just guessing here, heard of the problem in other motors.

[jd52cranbrook]

I'm not gonna say nuttin:p

Well thats not true... You should be able to locate Top Dead Center mark from your old cover and transfer it to the new one with a mark on the pan or something.

[Normspeed]

Or find TDC using the rod in #6, then paint a fresh TDC mark on the front pulley where the pointer is pointing?

[Jim Saraceno]

Thanks Norm and JD, one of those two will be the next step I take.

[PatS....]

The pointer on the black cover is also upside-down...or more correctly right side up.

[Normspeed]

Jim, here's my 53 timing pointer. Looks like you got an oddball timing cover on the rebuilt. Might be fine if the pulley matched the cover but they must have done a mix and match. The more I look at your black cover, I can see where the original pointer used to be attached.

[Don Coatney]

My, my, my, what a strange development this is. I put together all your suggestions and kept checking things over and over. The one that startled me was when I put a rod in the hole over #6 cylinder, it didn't top out when the mark on the balancer aligned with the pointer on the cover. It topped out about 15-20 degrees past it. I looked at the timing chain cover from my old engine and look at the difference!

The black one is the rebuilt engine. Anyways, as you can see, the pointers are in different places and the marks on the damper seem to align closer to the pointer on the old engine than the new one. So I reset the timeing as I was 20 degrees advanced. By the time I got things changed I looked down the barrel of the carb and saw a big pool of gas sitting there. I'm letting that dry up before I mess with is anymore.

Has anyone else had this problem?

Jim;

Good find! What year is your new engine? There was a guy a year or so ago on this forum and on the POC forum who had a late 50's Plymouth and had the same basic issues you were having with timing. Makes me wonder when this change with the timing pointer came about.