Brake opinions

[jimwheeldon]

I need to rebuild my entire brake system. If you had to do it all over again would you #1 Rebuild the stock system ....or #2 change them over to disc?

If discs are a significant improvement wouldn't I be money ahead to make the switch now? Also , do you need to get a different master cylinder if you change over to disc? Please pardon the 20 questions..just wanted to pick yer brains!

[greg g]

Cost are comparable with the rebuild/change to discs. The discs are much more convenient and getting parts is much easier come repair time. Several folks are runnign discs wit the stock MC. but adding either a residual pressure deal or a proportioning valve. The stock brakes are a pain to get adjusted correctly, and the dual front wheel cylinders are prone to leakage. So discs are worth considering if you gotta do the complete system any way. If you do a forum search for disc braks (or disk brakes) you should get some good info as there are several options available. from basic bolt on caliper adapters to full repalcement deals. Check forum members Charilie Acker's site (rusty hope) for pics of a good basic kit.

[Lou Earle]

Me personally I do not change over When all the dust settles it costs about 800 to convert. Do not get me wrong it is not a bad option I just do not do it. I find a well set up and maintained set of original brakes are just fine for my usage-daily drivers. I have 6 plyms and all have drum brakes all around.

The stopping power of disks is not appreciably better than drums but they have less fade under severe conditions. However I drove drums when that was all we had and they worked then. Since even with 7 cars I usually just drive them in good weather and locally And seldom over 60 I do not really see the need. I know often emergencies dictate severe use of brakes but mine on my A models and plyms have not failed me yet. Actually on the A and plyms Anti lock would be better- I can and have locked mine down to complete skid on all 4.

Just me thoughts.

Lou

[rearview]

I was in the exact same situation a couple weeks ago. I just finished repairing the rear brakes, pulled it out of the garage, stopped once and wasted three front cylinders. Pulled the front apart, needed all new cylinders, shoes, springs, one rubber line was sketchy, etc. Price for price it would have been slightly cheaper to rebuild what I have, but the increased stopping power of the disk, reliability, cheap and readily avaialble replacement parts made the difference. I read through many posts here and decided to go with ECI's kit after recommendation from Norm's Coupe. I put all the bells and whistles on the kit including all new rubber lines, residual valves, and upgraded to a dual chamber master cylinder. It drove the cost up a bit, I now have $1000 in the kit, but I also won't think twice about taking my 4 year old along in the backseat.

Brake kit instll should be complete this weekend and can give feedback on that, or Norm can chime in, he has the same thing except for the MC.

Bob

[martybose]

(snip)

Brake kit instll should be complete this weekend and can give feedback on that, or Norm can chime in, he has the same thing except for the MC.

Bob

I'd be particularly interested in what it took to mount the ECI master cylinder setup; is it a bolt-in unit, weld-in, something else? How well does it fit? Etc, etc.

Marty

[Norm's Coupe]

Jim,

As mentioned by Bob, I used the ECI kit and kept my original MC. You only need the residual valves to do that. I don't know what the cost of the dual MC from ECI but it is also supposed to be a direct fit. The only reason I didn't change my MC was because the ECI dual MC wasn't available at the time, plus my original MC had already been rebuilt and was working fine. If my old MC fails, I will also pick the MC up from ECI.

I have to disagree with those who say there is no difference in the stopping when you compare disc brakes to drum brakes. The disc brakes will stop you much faster with much less effort, even with the old MC still in the car.

As far as cost goes, I would spend the money now for disc brakes, it's not that much difference in cost. I originally rebuilt all my old wheel cylinders and rebuilt each brake to save money. A year or two later, the wheel cylinders started leaking. Then I bought all new wheel cylinders from Kanter and rebuilt it again. Still wasn't happy with the stopping distance required in city traffic, so then converted the fronts to disc brakes. So...........it would have been much cheaper to just buy the disc brake kit first.

[Young Ed]

I can't say for sure but off the top of my head I don't think I spent anywhere near 1000.00 to completely replace my stock brakes. And I have 100% new. All 6 wheel cylinders a master cylinder shoes and all new steel and rubber lines. Only thing reused is the drums and the brake pedal!

[Norm's Coupe]

I can't say for sure but off the top of my head I don't think I spent anywhere near 1000.00 to completely replace my stock brakes. And I have 100% new. All 6 wheel cylinders a master cylinder shoes and all new steel and rubber lines. Only thing reused is the drums and the brake pedal!

Ed,

I didn't spend anywhere near $1,000 either for my ECI disc brakes. I bought the complete kit for about $700 (including about $60 shipping charges). I don't know the cost of the MC though from ECI. Bob may be adding other incidental cost like if he had to change wheels like I did. I really don't consider that a cost of the brakes though because it's not a bad thing to have new wheels to run tubeless tires. New wheel cylinders alone for all four wheels will cost about $180 for the old drum brakes, or $120 for the fronts only. If you need new drums, that's about $150 more for each side. You can't forget that with the cost of the disc brakes includes new rotors that replaces the old drums. So, you have to add the cost of new drums when comparing the cost difference between disc and drum systems to equal it out.

[Young Ed]

Even at $700 you are probably double what I spent plus you had to buy wheels too. I will have to go home and look to see what I actually spent. And I am running tubeless radials on my factory rims.

[Normspeed]

I have the stock setup and it works well. Granted, the original setup is quirky on adjustments and the front cylinders can be prone to leakage, but so far my fronts are fine and the rears, after some work, are also good. If one had the time, money, patience and shop equipment to do the changeover to disks I'm sure it would be an improvement, but these old cars have run many miles with the factory style brakes and they have proven to do the job. I drive the freeways and I also travel mountain roads towing a small trailer and have never experienced brake fade or failure on my Plymouth. However, I'm also aware of what emergency measures might be needed should they fail and I'm very aware of how they are performing, and I check the fluid level often and do a visual on the backing plates to look for leakage.

[RobertKB]

I have the stock brakes on all three of my old Chrysler products. Replace all that needs replacing and don't skimp on that, especially old brake hoses. So far I have not had leakage problems and the brakes work fine. Adjustment is very important to the drum brake set-up. Check the main website on how to do that properly. I've driven my old cars over the Logan Pass (Going to the Sun Highway) when visiting Montana and believe me that is one place you have to rely on your brakes. It is narrow and has 1000+ foot drops in several places with virtually no guard rails. Got friends who have driven their Model T's and A's over it with original braking. I always like stock and am biased that way but I do believe the original brakes work fine if set up properly.

[Norm's Coupe]

Even at $700 you are probably double what I spent plus you had to buy wheels too. I will have to go home and look to see what I actually spent. And I am running tubeless radials on my factory rims.

Ed,

I was more or less agreeing with you on your cost of replacing/rebuilding your brakes (minus the brake drums). If you count the cost minus NEW brake drums your $300 would be in the ballpark. However, if you replaced the drums that would put you right up there with the price of the disc brake conversion. You have to add the drums to compare apples to apples, because you are replacing those in a disc conversion with NEW rotors that serve the same purpose as your old original drums do. Actually, the cost of switching over for just the parts, minus the shipping charges comes to about $620 to about $640. The shipping is what puts it a little over $700.

I don't count the wheels because the wheels are not part of the brakes. It's just like when I need to buy a special tool to do a job. I never count the cost of the tool because I can use it for something else.

I'll agree the old drum brakes will stop the car, just like they did when new 60 years or so ago. However, modern disc brakes are a much better upgrade with todays traffic. I recently saw a TV show that said the population of the US was double what it was in the 40's & 50's. That means at least double the number of cars and trucks on the road today. Much more traffic. In the 70's I could get from my house on the northern border of Milwaukee county to the southern end of Milwaukee county in about 20 minutes during rush hour. Today during rush hour that same trip is about 45 minutes to an hour or more. That's without construction zones. So times have changed a lot since 1948. Just like today you use your cell phone, microwave, computer email, etc., you have to keep up with the times and make some improvements along the way.

I forgot to count the wheel bearings. You are also getting new inner and outer wheel bearings on the front with a disc brake conversion. So, you would also need to add that cost to the $300 original rebuild to compare apples to apples.

[blueskies]

I completely replaced my entire stock brack system, with the exception of the drums. My drums were up to spec, and I had them turned for free to clean them up.

I spent a total of 714.50 for everything but the new hard lines. I don't have an exact total for the new hard lines, but I don't think it was more than about $20.

This total included all new wheel bearings and seals front and rear, all new cylinders, new master cylinder, etc. The bearing and seal kits for front and rear were $230 of the total, so if hadn't wanted to replace the bearings and seals, the total for just the brakes would have been $484.50.

I drive my car everywhere, in all kinds of conditions from country roads to clogged freeways, to very long 10% mountain grades. I've never been worried about the stock brakes being able to stop the car in any of these conditions. I do however think the disc brake setup gives you more stopping power than the stock brakes. I have a conversion on my '53 chevy truck and there is a big difference between the two. On my Plymouth, however, I think the skinny bias ply tires that I have are more of a limiting factory than the brakes. I can easily lock up the stock brakes and slide on the skinny tires...

Properly adjusted with the ammco tool, the stock brakes work very well, but getting them adjusted is the key. If they aren't adjusted correctly, the surface of the shoe that contacts the drum will not be evenly distibuted to the drum and the braking power will suffer considerably.

If I were to do it all over again, I would definitely consider the disc conversion. It is not that much more expensive, and is easier to get parts for, adjust, and has more stopping power. At the time I did my brakes, I did not want to buy different wheels, and was interested in a simple replacement of stock parts to get my car on the road faster. I'm happy with the result.

Pete

[jimwheeldon]

do you guys think I need to change the hard lines on my brakes? everything is pretty crusty (master cylinder won't even pump fluid) it was bone dry when I got the car. I'm thinking that I'll need to replace the master cylinder, lines and wheel cylinders...I just don't know if the hard lines would be corroded or if I can just blow them out.

[Norm's Coupe]

Jim,

Regardless if you go the disc brake way or not, I would go ahead and change all the lines, rubber and hard lines. You can buy new hard lines at any auto parts store. Cost would be about $20 or $30 complete for the hard lines, but you would have to bend them yourself. Best to be safe than sorry. Not to mention a line being badly corroded, if any dirt or rust particles are in there it could mess up a wheel cylinder. The hard lines are universal straight pieces. As for the flexible lines, just measure what length you need and ask for one that size. They probably won't know what flexible line to sell you, unless you measure. Their books don't normally go back as far as our cars.

[Young Ed]

Just for fun I checked my receipts for brake parts. I spent 370 on mine so it was a little more then I thought. I'm sure there was a little more for the hardlines that wasn't included. Jim check out the PVC coated ones that are out now. I tried them on my dakota and liked them very much. Easier to bend my hand and they can be cut and reflared just like the reg steel lines.

[blueskies]

do you guys think I need to change the hard lines on my brakes? everything is pretty crusty (master cylinder won't even pump fluid) it was bone dry when I got the car. I'm thinking that I'll need to replace the master cylinder, lines and wheel cylinders...I just don't know if the hard lines would be corroded or if I can just blow them out.

Like the other's have said, there's no reason not to replace the lines. It's not worth the risk of contaminating the rest of your new system with whatever may be in the old lines.

The prefab universal lines have flared ends already on them, come in a variety of lengths, and are very inexpensive. You can remove the old ones, and use them for a pattern to hand bend the new ones. With a little creative bending, you can lose a little extra length that you might have in a piece or two of the stock lengths available. I did all of my hard lines with the prefab lines, and did not have to replace any of the flared ends. The only two pieces that I did not replace were the two short lines that connect the two cylinders in the front brakes. These are shorter than the shortest available prefab line, and since they are so short, you can make sure they are clean before you put them back on. Unless of course, your's are corroded to the point of needing to be replaced anyway.

The stock lines on my '50 have a spiral wound wire like a spring on them in areas where they are likely to rub, so for the new lines, I bought a spool of stainless wire and wrapped the new lines to match. Took me a about an hour to do all the lines to match the factory wraps.

Pete

[steveplym]

On my car the brakes have already been replaced. All but the steel lines and hoses. I'm in the process of doing that now. They work very well and last summer a guy pulled in front of me and it stopped really well.

I thought about the disc conversion, but with the wheel cyls and shoes ok at this point will go ahead and replace all the line and hoses and check to make sure nothing is leaking at this point. Down the road may switch over to disc as seems like a much better option with better braking power. Would make repairs in the future much cheaper.

I noticed the Ammco tool for brake adjustment above, is this tool available somewhere or would it have to be an item to find at a swap meet? Wondering as would be nice to make sure the front shoes are adjusted correctly.

[rearview]

I completely replaced my entire stock brack system, with the exception of the drums. My drums were up to spec, and I had them turned for free to clean them up.

I spent a total of 714.50 for everything but the new hard lines. I don't have an exact total for the new hard lines, but I don't think it was more than about $20.

This total included all new wheel bearings and seals front and rear, all new cylinders, new master cylinder, etc. The bearing and seal kits for front and rear were $230 of the total, so if hadn't wanted to replace the bearings and seals, the total for just the brakes would have been $484.50.

Sorry, I was out today.

This post puts it really in perspective. If you want to keep piece mealing your stock brakes together every year or two you will only see the incrimental cost of $2-300 here and there. Pete did the whole shooting match and came in at $714.50, I am at $1008, with expedited shipping ( I'm impatient and wanted to start soon) but without wheels. I came across some newer rally wheels that I'm going to see how they look instead. Worst case is another $180 for 3 wheels.

Tonight I tore one side of the original brakes off and installed the ECI kit. It took 30 minutes to take off the stock junk and clean, and 20 minutes to install the ECI stuff. VERY straight forward and simple. I sat there for another few minutes thinking I forgot something. It was that easy.

The MC kit looks like maybe a GM or Ranger MC and some pretty elaborate mounting system and pedal mount. Very high quality looking and absolutely beautiful welds.

I would rather tinker to upgrade a system on the car then spend a bunch of time repairing the same system over and over. I'll spend my time driving instead.

Bob

[Guest jjmorrse]

I am planning on doing an eci kit soon. This thread got me thinking. What is the difference in weight between stock and the disk upgrades? Also, I am curious, on my 54 plymouth, I have 11" drums. Does anyone know what determined when the different sized drums were used? i.e 12"

[rearview]

Stock with 10" drums is 28 lb, ECI is 34lb (but a huge size difference)

[jimwheeldon]

Does ECI have a website? Or do you have a phone No# for them? Thanks

[Norm's Coupe]

Does ECI have a website? Or do you have a phone No# for them? Thanks

http://www.ecihotrodbrakes.com/index.html

[Olddaddy]

Since I make disc brake kits I'm biased in favor of converting to discs. I went through the same decision process many years ago and settled on the upgrade. Unless your car is a totally original restoration, or you just prefer the original drums, discs are an affordable option in my opinion.

I just priced up a complete set of parts to do the conversion using my kit for a guy in Germany. Buying everything for the conversion, the best of the best at my local Napa came up to around $325. If you shop the sales or go to a discount store, like say Autozone, Pep Boys etc. you can shave $100 of that amount. My kit sells for $225 including shipping to lower 48 addresses.

[rearview]

One point that I did note last night is all of the components that were supplied in the ECI kit were manufactured in North America, except maybe the bearings that were SKF (excellent bearings). It was nice to see that they weren't supplying the $12 AutoZone Chinese rotors and calipers (...cough cough.... that you replace 6 months later)