Spent a little more time on my engine...

[blueskies]

... last night. I got back under the car with a small mirror on a telescopic handle and a bright flashlight to have a better look at the clearance between the rods and block.

There is quite a bit of room between the two, looks to be about 1/16 to 1/8" or so. I didn't figure out a way to measure this, but visually, it doesn't seem that there is any way the rods could be contacting the block. I looked very carefully at all the edges of the cylinders where the rods are closest, and there doesn't seem to be any hammer marks on any of them. I'm confident that this is not the problem.

I had not checked the bearing clearance on the front main, so I did that, and it checks out to spec. I could see a faint bit of wear-in on this bearing, but it still checked out with plasti-guage. Wondering if this is from not having a balancer on the crank...

Satisfied that there was nothing else to check on the bottom end, I cleaned up the old gasket from the block and pan, and installed the new gasket and pan back on the engine. I searched for about an hour for the drain plug to the pan... I had taken it to work with me a couple of weeks ago to get a new sealing washer on the way home, and couldn't remember where I put it when I got back home. After turning the garage upside down looking for it, I found it right where I had put it, in one of my toolbox drawers.

This weekend, I'm going to put the oil back in, fire it up, and try to detemine the next step. Mark Hudson thinks maybe it's the waterpump, or lower pulley, coming apart from the lack of a balancer. I'm going to pull the belt and check for obvious slack in these parts. Next will be the HEI. I had issues with the HEI/oil pump interface, wondering if this could be it too. Might be the fuel pump too. I replaced the fuel pump and HEI at about the same time, and at about the same time the noise started in.

I don't want to start replacing parts at random, but I should probably have a couple of spares on board for the 3000 mile trip to Tulsa anyway. I think I am going to buy a new fuel pump and water pump, and swap them out one at a time if I can't find the noise anywhere else. I'll keep the other pair in the trunk for the trip.

Gotta git-er fixed soon, still have to rebuild the front suspension and a bunch of other little things before the big race, er ah... big trip to Tulsa.

More to come...

Pete

[bob westphal]

Pete,

If you don't have a stethescope, I suggest you get one. They're real cheap and are the best way to sound out engine noises. In all your posts I haven't seen exactly when and how the knock occurs. Your on the right track by checking all exterior components. I've even had an exhaust leak that sounded exactly like a knock.

[Normspeed]

I had one new fuel pump that knocked like a rod. That one was worst at idle. There was an awful lot of wiggle room where the activating arm pivoted. I exchanged it for another new one and it was fine. Now I run an electric pump, the mechanical is just there for show. Looks functional though. I removed the arm and put a metal plate under the mounting gasket.

I agree on the stethoscope, great diagnostic tool.

[/img]

[blueskies]

Pete,

If you don't have a stethescope, I suggest you get one.

I dropped by my local autoparts store at lunch today to pick up some oil and a filter, and asked if they had a stethoscope. Sure enough, there it was on the rack, $17.

Bought it and can't wait to try it out.

I didn't realize that these things have their own ear drum diaphram in the handle.

It's amazing how well it works. I could hear everything happening on my FJ by putting the tip of the scope on the transfercase shifter handle inside the rig. If this doesn't narrow it down to the source, I don't know what will...

Pete

[Normspeed]

You'll probably be able to detect the noise at several points with the stethoscope. Then the finesse part is interpreting which point is close to the source. One location will likely give a more solid and pronounced sound.

[tragic59]

Are you going to start running a balancer? It seems a consensus has been reached that not running one could be causing you some problems.

Did you balance the internals when you rebuilt the engine? I could've sworn I read on your website that you had...

[blueskies]

Are you going to start running a balancer? It seems a consensus has been reached that not running one could be causing you some problems.

Did you balance the internals when you rebuilt the engine? I could've sworn I read on your website that you had...

I'm going to try and find a balancer, my engine did not have one from the factory before I changed to over to a 230. I'd like to adapt a Fluidamr but they are expensive and don't have a direct application that I know of. I'll probably dig up a factory type and run it for now.

I did balance everything inside, as well as the flywheel. But this doesn't eliminate torsional vibrations, thus the reason for a damper on the crank.

Pete

[greg g]

might want to check out the products and services of the Damper Doctor.

[james curl]

The Damper Doctor did my damper on the 41 Dodge engine in my 48 P-15. I also have a noise like a loose valve lifter but have adjusted the valves. With a stethescope the noise can be heard at the oil galley fiting above the oil pressure relief valve. The noise is only audible from idle to about 1500 RPMS. I think it was Shel that posted an article in the technical section about the clicking oil pressure relief valve. The noise has not changed in about 2000 miles of hard driving. I drive the speed limit or run with traffic on the interstate which is 70 plus around here. The car has a 3.9:1 rear end and P205 75 15 tires. Should be 3400 RPM at 70.

[jd52cranbrook]

... I should probably have a couple of spares on board for the 3000 mile trip to Tulsa anyway.

Pete

Never leave home without them. I have just about one of everything external on the motor in a container in the trunk.

...

Gotta git-er fixed soon, still have to rebuild the front suspension and a bunch of other little things before the big race, er ah... big trip to Tulsa.

Pete

I Realize I'm relatively a newbie here, but I might be interested running along side you guys if you don't mind? I've got some secrets up my sleeve in this engine also.......

Good luck in your search Pete If you dont find it, turn the radio up when you drive,,,,

[Jerry Roberts]

Pete , You could test run your engine with the fuel pump removed . Just use an elevated gas can and a lenght of rubber gas hose . Put duct tape over the hole where the fuel pump was to keep any oil from splashing out .

[blueskies]

I put the oil back in the engine, new filter, and fired it up. Noise still there... I drove the car about 30 miles, back and forth to my office. Felt good to get it back out on the highway, even though I could hear the nasty noise all along the way. I felt better knowing that it wasn't a bearing ready to dump a rod through the pan though .

I listened to the engine all over with the stethoscope, it's amazing how well you can hear what is going on inside the engine with this thing.

As expected, I could hear the knock-knock sound all over the engine. The water pump, HEI, alternator, etc didn't seem to be the source of the noise. It was louder nearer the bottom of the block than the top, which is why I was convinced it was a bearing last time I tried to find the source by listening with a long metal rod to my ear.

It was loudest however, on the oil pump. Very loud, in fact, compared to the rest of the engine. I have to think that the oil pump, or the interface of the oil pump to distributor shaft, is the source of the noise. Tom Langdon thinks that the oil pump I have was machined off center, causing the oil pump to be off-axis to the distrubutor shaft, causing the distributor to wobble. If you remember, I pulled the pump to inspect it, but didn't find it to be unusual with a visual inspection. I found that the tip of the distributor shaft was binding in the oil pump, and I filed the tip a bit so that it would not bind as it went around, even at an angle. This cured the wobble.

This is the only thing that has changed on the engine aside from the defective fuel pump, since the first startup. I have to believe that the new noise is related to one of these three parts, the oil pump, the distributor, or the fuel pump.

Since the noise is very loud at the oil pump with the stethoscope, I'm going to start there. I'm going to order a new oil pump today. Thinking about ordering a new HEI from Tom too, since I messed with the one I have. If it turns out not to be the HEI, I will sell the spare later.

Changing the oil pump is a b!tch, because the oil pump will not clear the frame unless the engine is moved over in the engine bay of the car. This means draining the radiator, pulling the radiator hoses, motor mounts, alternator, exhaust, heater, etc, and moving the engine over enough to get the pump out. At least I've done it before...

Still hoping to get this damn thing resolved before Tulsa...

Pete

[james curl]

On the P-15's you can pull it out far enough to disengage the distrubtor and rotate it 180 degrees which puts the off set side down and it will just clear the frame before coming out. Before I tried rotating the pump it hit the frame and I was about to give up until I rotated it and it pulled right out, turned out to be so easy I wondered why I waited so long to do it. I to have a clicking sound in this general area and I pulled the distributor and found the tang on the distributor worn to a taper so I changed both the distributor and the oil pump. The noise is still there and have moved on to the oil pressure relief valve as the source of the noise. Have polished the seating surfaces on the relief valve and replaced the spring, just improved my oil pressure when hot, noise still there. Am hoping you will find the source of yours, mine is different as it goes away around 1500 RPM. My noise is between 500 and 1500 RPM, very annoying.

[blueskies]

On the P-15's you can pull it out far enough to disengage the distrubtor and rotate it 180 degrees which puts the off set side down and it will just clear the frame before coming out.

James- I wish it were that simple on the '50, but unfortunately, it isn't...

This pic was taken before I pulled the exhaust and moved the engine over about 4 inches, last time I removed the pump.

Pete

[Plymouthy Adams]

Pete told me the same thing as it was a drop out on the 54 Plymouth of mine also...what an extreme...

Pete, can you just pull the end and check to see if a piece of foriegn metal is lodged on the pump impeller? Just a thought...

[blueskies]

Pete, can you just pull the end and check to see if a piece of foriegn metal is lodged on the pump impeller? Just a thought...

I suppose it wouldn't hurt, just to see. But if the pump truely has an offset problem causing the wobble, it needs to be replaced anyway. The new pump isn't that expensive, so I might as well just go for it, and eliminate the possibility.

Pete

[james curl]

My shop manual which also includes your car stated that sometimes you could remove the two bottom cover bolts to remove the pump. I thought they ment the two top bolts as on my car they hit the frame, but still hit the frame with them out. Then I rotated the pump and it just came out. I can see that yours still needs about two inches more room to remove the pump. How high above the bottom of the frame does the bolts in the cover contact the frame? Could you remove the drivers side transmission mount bolt and the front drivers side bolt and loosen the passengers side bolts and raise the drivers side enough to get the pump below the frame? I do not know what this would do to the clutch linkage, it mounts on a ball and socket arangment.

[blueskies]

How high above the bottom of the frame does the bolts in the cover contact the frame? Could you remove the drivers side transmission mount bolt and the front drivers side bolt and loosen the passengers side bolts and raise the drivers side enough to get the pump below the frame? I do not know what this would do to the clutch linkage, it mounts on a ball and socket arangment.

If I remember, the pump hits the frame about half way up from the bottom of the frame. I'd forgotten about the linkages... ugh. I'm trying to remember now, if last time I did this I let the engine down by removing the front mount, or if I shifted it to the side... I'll figure it out again I'm sure...

Pete

[Normspeed]

Strange, I recall changing an oil pump in the car on a 55 Plymouth and there was no clearance problem at all.

[blueskies]

Strange, I recall changing an oil pump in the car on a 55 Plymouth and there was no clearance problem at all.

I'm not familiar with the later models, but the frame profile must be different?

Pete

[1just4don]

If its that close how about either

1.pull the two front motor mount bolts,leaving all radiator hoses and everything else intact and just pick up front of motor a couple inches,,,back will swivel on the mount some,hoses will flex.

2. take transmission mount bolts out and jack back part of tranny up till it hits the bottom of the hump. This changes angle of exit some more than anything.

Whichever you think would help removal and reinstall the most,,,(I) havent done this so dont know the probs,but 'space' is always a prob for ME. Hands too big and clumsy!!

Front of engine can raise 'alot' inside the car without causing much problem. Just a thought,,,may not be the BEST thoughts,cause they belong to me and borrowed to you!! Other variations can work better based on YOUR experience. Old time mechanics had alot of tricks up their sleeves too!!

Sometimes its better to be lucky than smart,,and stretching our luck is what lifes all about!! --d--

[blueskies]

Sometimes its better to be lucky than smart,,and stretching our luck is what lifes all about!! --d--

As my wise old grandfather used to tell me all the time, "if you have luck, anything will do for brains..."

I've been riding on luck most of my life .

Pete

[blueskies]

Just had a nice long conversation with Tom Langdon... Talked to him about fixing the shaft on my HEI distributor that I "modified". He said send it in and he'd replace the shaft for me. Cheaper than buying another unit, but he's traveling to Carlisle and Hershey for the next few weeks... and I'm running out of time. I think I'll buy the new one, and them have him fix the other one when he has time.

Tom is convinced that the oil pump, or the block, or a combination of the two is the cause of the wobble, and possibly the noise. He suggested cleaning up the original oil pump and putting that on to check for noise. He says the quality control of the new pumps isn't great, and I'd be better off with an original pump instead. Problem is, I don't have the original any more, traded it as a core for the one I've got. The key is to measure the pump for concentricity, and to make sure it is square to the block. The new pump I've ordered may be just as bad or worse than the one I've got, and measuring it will be the only way to tell, instead of just throwing parts at it.

Jut not sure how to measure the pump or block to see if it is out of whack somewhere...

Pete

[Don Coatney]

Pete;

I think I have my original P-15 oil pump if you need it.

[blueskies]

Pete;

I think I have my original P-15 oil pump if you need it.

Thanks Don... I already ordered a new pump from VPW, I'll see what it looks like when it gets here in a couple of days. I'm going to try and measure the two, and see if there are any differences between the new one and the existing. If I decide an older pump is better, I will let you know.

Pete