New to the site and to flatheads

[spitfire]

Thank you very much, Pat. I'd love to see some pictures of your car, if you have any! I love projects...

Are those flappy window things even still available? The driver's one is broken. The others are great. I use it all the time, so maybe I should just leave it broken, so I don't just break another .

So, after some investigating, I guess it's possible that my cars valve guides could be shot. I'm not saying the rest of my motor is in perfect shape with these kinds of miles, but it seems to be in pretty good shape, so I can't justify rebuilding it yet (well, most of the problem is that I don't have nearly that kind of money at the moment). What would I need to do to replace them? Pull the head? Maybe this is dumb, but say, maybe this summer, what if I had a valve job done, replaced the piston rings, all bearings, and did a cylinder hone, even while leaving the block in the car? I know it's not ideal, but would it work?

A main concern is that I live in California....a definite hell for old cars. I'd hate for someone in a new Prius to report my car smoking, because it tainted their latte. I actually don't know what they can do about a 50s car (way before any pollution control devices came into play). I have to worry about all this until I can move.

[greg g]

Your deceleration smoking is probably worn valve guides. When the engine is in a high rpm/high vacuum (closed throttle) state the intake cycle still wants the same air flow, if it doens't get it through the intake system, it will find it some where, Leaky valve guides will allow it to suck air and vapors out of the crank case.

As your compression and oil pressure are good, it seems your engine is in good condition, but you could hook a vacuum gauge to it to check the thigs that that will show you. There is a link to the secondchance garage page and it feature on use and reading of a vacuum gauge, posted already in one of your answers. (or in one of the other recent threads).

I have been using the traveler diesel oil from Tractor Supply. It stacks up favorably to the old formulation of rotella. I have a freshly rebuilt engine, so I wasn't worried about old sludge. I have been satisfied with the oil.

The issue is with detergent oil is it operated differently from non detergent. It is formulated to hold contaminents in suspension, and allow them to be pumped throughthe filter and hopefully out when the filter is changed. Non detergent while it carried stuff, the contaminents were allowed to fall out when the oil settles back into the pan at engine off. The pan is designed to hold the stuff below the level of the working oil, and technically, flush the stuff out whenthe oil is drained. Most of the sludge is carbon from incomplete combustion, water from condensation, and lead particles from when gas used lead to increase octain and lubricate valves.

If you find it hard to find non detergent, a regime of detergent oil along with frequent filter changes (say every 750 to 1000 miles) should allow the detergent to work to clean out our engine. But dropping the pan and removeing any build up would probably be better. The other area wher it build up is in the valve gallies. this is the area behind the side coaves under the exhaust manifold where the valves get acceesd for adjustment. there are some deep pockets ther which accumulate a lot of goo. Don't think you can get them realy cleaned out withthe engie in the car but, you can access the drain holes ithe bottom. to make sue that the oil slung in ther to lubricate the valves, drains back into the crankcase. Which leads back to your smoking on decel issue.

If oil builds up in the valve gallies, it will be a lot easier for it to be sucked past valve guides that might be a bit worn. So that may alos be leading to you smoking.

Back in the old days a intermediat fix for worn valve guides was knurling them. This process could be done int he car by removing the head and valves and ruing a tool thorughthe guides which raised portions of the metal to partially restore their sealing quality. I doubt that there are any shops that eve have tech that would remember let alone have the tools necessary for such a fix. Not really a permaent repair and the raised metal will eventually wear back down. Forgive the ramblig, and have fun. If youo get the vacuum gauge on, let us know how it reads.

[spitfire]

Thanks a ton, Greg. I will for sure let you know. Forgive me for a potential dumb question, but do they knurl the outsides or somehow knurl the insides?

So, the traveller oil is similar to the old, better Rotella? What weight do you prefer?

I think I will remove that plate and clean out that whole area, especially those drain holes. The engine does seem to be fairly healthy, so I just don't see any reason to rebuild it yet. I kind of want to see how long it will last...I want to see a roll-over.

One more question and I will try and put this thread to rest- Where do you find service manuals for these cars?

I just want to say thanks a bunch for all the help and that you guys are genius. Maybe my next post will be fun related.

[greg g]

15w 40,

Check e bay for service manual. Also give a look onthe Imperial club as they do have a lot of old chrysler related service stuff reprinted there.

The knurling tool goes down the inside of the guide after the valve is removed. Maybe not really a job with the engine in the car, as pulling the valves with the manifolds on might be a problem.

The tool then goes down the inside of the guide to raise the metal within the area the stem rides in.

[spitfire]

What if I removed the manifolds? Is it possible to do the job in-car then?

[austinsailor]

I fail to see how knurling will stop oil use. The same volume of gap is still there, it is just cut into ridges.

I do know it'll tighten up the valves and make them seat better, therefore make it run smoother with more power, but I'm not so sure of the oil control.

I have used seals before, but in ohv engines, and installed them without removing the heads.. Can you install them in a flathead without removing the valves? I wonder if you could removed the keepers, slip off the flat deal on the bottom of the spring, use the valve spring compressor to push up the spring, then slip them into the spring? Seems like an interesting challenge.

[greg g]

Probably, depends on the style of valve spring cocmpressor you use. Also if you look closely, you will see that there is a removable fiber panel in the inner fender which allows access to the area through the wheel well for valve adjustment.

[Young Ed]

On the p15 the pass inner fender is two piece with the bottom intended to be removed for valve work.

[Kevinb71]

On the knurling when you run the knurler in (basically think of a tap) it raises the metal and makes the guides smaller on the inside diameter. You then go through them with a reamer and flatten the metal back out to the size of the valve stem. This tightens up the play and reduces the clearances. As a secondary benefit the "threads" in the guide hold a little oil and lubricate the guide better. It works quite well.

[PatS....]

Your car only has 78,000 miles? If so, I wouldn't think of opening up the engine unless something breaks. If you do the proper maintenance and drive it reasonably, it should be fine for quite a while. They were tough cars.

If it only smokes on deceleration, it's not a big deal.

In my opinion, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

You might try a can of "Restore" to minimize the smoking but at 60, it can smoke legally, even in California

[spitfire]

Hey guys, thanks for your time. Pat, the car has 88k original miles. I guess its just a don't follow too close deterrent hahahaha. Yeah, at that age, it should be exempt from anything emission related.

Where can you get freeze plugs for these cars? I've never removed one, but im thinking I may need to, as my car is running hotter than it should and the cooling system was a mess. I know I should have done it while it was apart, but iv never needed to before, so I didn't really think about it. Im also going to try retensioning the belt. In traffic it gets up 195 and keeps climbing till I move.

Edited February 10, 2011 by spitfire

[greg g]

Take a look down between the oil filler tube and the dizzy. There is a block drain, some have a petcock, some just a plug. You can pull which ever is there and see how much stuff is in the water jacket by fishing around toward the ends of the block to see if it will be free running while draining.

The plugs should be available at napa.

[clay diggs]

I bought some at NAPA yesterday. 1 5/8. 0.69 each.

[spitfire]

Greg, I actually attempted to drain the block from that petcock, but nothing came out. I removed it and had to break up the crud there before it would drain. Maybe a good indication that it needs attention...

Thanks for telling me napa sells them. Ill buy some and give it a shot.

Edited February 10, 2011 by spitfire

[Dodgeb4ya]

I just did a 1950 Windsor-was running hot too-full of sludge...Took the engine out for repairs, some pics. Notice the brass 1-5/8" were doubled up at the rear of block. I like to use brass as replacements myself. You should clean the soft plug machined bore carefully-sometimes it will be pitted and JB weld can be used to permanately seal a pitted recess bore for perfect leak free results.

Bob

[spitfire]

Wow, Bob, that's pretty bad. Thanks for the information. JB weld is good stuff. If there is pitting, I'll probably give it a shot. Thanks.

Alright guys, so I know that you are probably tired of hearing about all my cars issues, but I have another one. I started to notice it shortly after I bought it. If I drive it and park it for even just a few minutes, the car will smell strongly of fuel. There aren't any leaks though. Could the diaphram in the fuel pump be going out? I've had neighbors smell it as they walk by and mention it to me. After I did some research on this site, I heard about the pumps leaking fuel into the crankcase. I'm a bit concerned about that, as I can't imagine that this is good for your bearings. If the fuel pump is really bad, and I order another, should I park the car until the new one is in, or can the car be driven for another week or so? So far, I haven't noticed any signs of fuel in the oil. Thanks again. I promise I'm more fun than this!

[greg g]

pull the dip stick and give it a sniff, gas could be coming froma sticky needle inthe carb that isn't closing, or a mis adjusted float or a float that has s pin hole that lets gas in and lowers it bouyency. Is the base of the carb wet ear the throttle plate pivot??

If so then probably the carb deal, if not and th oil smells then look at the pump.

[wayfarer]

If the oil level is rising then you have a fuel pump issue. Hey, maybe that will help flush out the crud...

After your next joy ride, remove the air cleaner and shine a flashlight down the carb and see if fuel is trickling into the manifold.

.

Edited February 11, 2011 by wayfarer

[spitfire]

Hey guys, both good ideas. Greg, I actually took a look and the base of the carb (where the throttle plate pivot is) and it does look stained with fuel. I think I'll clean it up, take it for a drive, and see if the issue persists. I'll also look down the bore of the carb, as wayfarer suggested. Also, the oil fortunately doesn't smell like fuel. I'll let you guys know what I find out. Thanks again.

[spitfire]

Ok, so what's on the carb seems to be oil. I serviced the oil bath the other day and found that there wasn't a gasket around the venturi, so I made one. I noticed that at one time it was leaking oil on the carb. It must have just kind of clinged on to the casted part of the carb.

So, I've been noticing that every time I fire up the car after sitting for maybe 30 minutes or even less, it steams. I know it's steam and not smoke, because water drips from the pipe. Come to think of it, it seems to steam every time I let it idle for a few minutes. The white "smoke" vaporizes like steam, while actual smoke would kind of just drift off. I'm thinking I could possibly have a bad head gasket? What perplexes me is that the oil isn't milky (of course, it's only been in there for 500-700 miles, so if it's small, maybe it wouldn't be heavily contaminated yet). Maybe it's real small? Maybe that's why #3 cylinder is at 100ish while the others are at 110? I'm just kind of guessing. It looks like a really easy job and I could have a chance to see the internal condition of the motor as well as the opportunity to clean the carbon out of the combustion chambers. I haven't searched yet, I'm just speculating. Any ideas, or am I just being too critical?

Edit: Forgot to tell the outcome of the fuel smell. I went under the car just an hour ago or so and cleaned out the filthy bowl under the fuel pump. There was no filter in the bowl, which I feel it should have one. While under the car, I found that the fuel coupling at the pump for the line coming from the tank was leaking. Sorry, I didn't see any leaks before that. I tightened it up and so far it's fuel smell free.

Edited February 12, 2011 by spitfire

[Niel Hoback]

In the right weather conditions, high humidity and cool air, you could just be seeing water vapor from condensation in the exhaust pipe and muffler. It shouldn't last long, just until the exhaust system warms up a little.

Try blocking the tail pipe with your hand when its showing vapor and then feel it and smell it to see if it feels oily or smells like antifreeze.

I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[spitfire]

It just seems really strange to me that it does it every time I run the car. I don't mean when it's cold either, I mean when it's up to full operating temperature. I could go and take it for a 30 minute drive, park it for 5 minutes, come back out and start it and have steam accompanied with water dripping from the pipe. Seems like every time it's parked for over a few minutes, I have steam. I'v never had a car do that after it was warmed up.

I actually did check out the water from the pipe. It just seemed like water. Maybe just slightly sweet, but I can't really say. Smelt more like exhaust than anything else .

[Niel Hoback]

When its running, look in the radiator for bubbles and hope you don't see any.

Re-torque the head bolts just for the fun of it.

[spitfire]

Thanks, Niel. So, I started it up and checked to see if there were any bubbles popping up in the radiator, but there weren't any. I guess I'm just not use to the way old cars operate.