A question for Chrysler, DeSoto, Dodge guys

[BobT-47P15]

On my convertible, there is a set of springs that helps provide tension

when the top is raised and lowered. They attach to the top frame and

to a brace over the rear wheel well. Very little mention is given to the

top mechanism in my parts and repair manuals.

However, a description of that particular spring is given.

I was wondering if the same info was given in parts manuals for

the other brands - Chrysler, DeSoto, Dodge.

Would someone with each of those makes be kind enough to look in

your parts manual to see if that spring is listed. I would like to determine

if they are all the same size or if each is different.

I first went to the alphabetical indes at rear of the manual and found the

listing for springs. The one in question is called "Spring, folding top

balance"......followed by a page number and part type code.

Then I went back to page 326 as indicated, and found the spring listed.

"spring, folding top balance (92 1/2 coils, 17 1/4 inches free length)"

followed by the model code and part number which is 650-618 for a

Plymouth. Looks like this........

I wonder if similar information is contained in the books for other

brands, since the manual covers both closed and open cars.

If you find it or don't find it listed, I would appreciate knowing the

information.

Thanks in advance.

Bob

[busycoupe]

Bob,

Apparently the tops are not constructed the same. The Dodge D24 parts book lists:

Spring, folding top equalizing, p376, 10 11/16" long, 76 coils, part # 896-644

The top diagram on page 311 does not show a spring attaching to the body. The spring listed above attaches between the rear bow and the side arm that extends over the windows. I can try to scan this diagram if you like, but from your description, I think that the mechanisms are very different.

Dave

[busycoupe]

Here is the diagram for a D24 folding top.

[Don Coatney]

Bob;

Need a size reference in your picture such as a dollar bill.

[P-12 Tommy]

This probably doesn't help but the part# in my '41 parts book is close. 850618 I wonder if it's the same or close.

Tom

[Gary Manes]

Bob,

I am sorry to say that the parts books are not any help when it comes to springs anywhere on the car.

On my Chrysler there is a small spring on the end of the hood release that hooks into the grill to pull the release cable back into place. Also, there are springs which keep the tension on the seat to help govern forward and reward motion. Not a word about any of them: length, windings, etc. And, these are just the ones I need--not all of them by far.

In fact your spring looks very much like my one remaining seat spring. Which, of course, is of no help.

Sorry!!

[BobT-47P15]

Don, that spring is 17 3/4" long from end of hook to end of other hook.

The coiled part is right at 11 5/8".

Outside diameter is 3/4".

I didn't know if the other brands used the same arrangement and same

spring. But it's looking like they did not. However, shall wait and see

what further answers are received. Part of the ongoing learning

experience you can have with these cars.

[1940plymouth]

Bob,

Can you take the old spring to a hardware store and compare it with what they have in stock?

The reason I ask is that there is a store called the Trading Post about ten miles from here that has one heck of a selection of springs along the line of the one you have.

Food for thought,

Bob

[55 Fargo]

Bob' date='

Can you take the old spring to a hardware store and compare it with what they have in stock?

The reason I ask is that there is a store called the Trading Post about ten miles from here that has one heck of a selection of springs along the line of the one you have.

Food for thought,

Bob[/quote']

I would also got to an Industrial hardware supplier, and match up a spring, probably the best bet

[BobT-47P15]

Dave, thanks for the info and diagram.

I see that spring and it is indeed in a totally different location.

The Dodge apparently had a hydraulic/electric motor system

The P15 uses the vacuum cannister arrangement.

A vacuum line comes off the manifold at the same place as wipers.

Goes into car. A Y off to wiper motor.

Then to a push-pull vacuum switch.

From that has hoses and tubes to rear seat area. Connect to the

cannisters.....one connector at top, another at the bottom. Either

sucks the top plunger up or down.

[busycoupe]

I have never heard of a vacuum powered top mechanism. Electric, hydraulic, and manual; but vacuum is a new one on me! Like you said earlier, working on these cars is constantly a learning process!

I wonder if the pre-war cars used the vacuum mechanism. Perhaps the same frame and spring was used on 39 - 41 mopars.

I hope that you have luck in finding some.

Dave

[Dodgeb4ya]

1946-8 Dodge DeSoto and Chrysler used twin electric screw shaft motor and gear box assemblies to raise /lower the tops. Also have a friend who's 39 Plym convertible uses those big vacuum cylinders to operate the top as on the P-15's.

My 48 Chrysler convert uses those 2 springs on the top linkage too. I would measure them but cannot get to the car.Move 5 to get to it!

Bob

[BobT-47P15]

I have a copy of an article that says Plymouth was the inventor of the

power operated top systems, using the vacuum cylinders. Not sure

what the first year was. I guess the Plymouth must have been the

only Mopar to use them.

I think vacuum was used on Cadillac also sometime in later 30s or 40s.

You can still buy a new vac cylinder from the Hydro E Lectric Co, who

I think are located in Florida....or at least you could at one time.

[BobT-47P15]

Some added info from a post in 2007...........

Dodge

1940 vacuum

41-48 Electric

1949-52 and 55 Hydro Electric

1953-54 Electric

Chrysler/DeSoto

1940 Vacuum

1941-48 Electric

1949-55 Hydro-electric

Plymouth

1940-48 Vacuum

1940-50 Deluxe Electric

1949-50 Sp Dlx Hydrao Electric

1951-54 Electric

1955 Hydro-electric

per 1955 Motors manual...has good description of vacuum operation and service.

[Young Ed]

I have a copy of an article that says Plymouth was the inventor of the

power operated top systems, using the vacuum cylinders. Not sure

what the first year was. I guess the Plymouth must have been the

only Mopar to use them.

I think vacuum was used on Cadillac also sometime in later 30s or 40s.

You can still buy a new vac cylinder from the Hydro E Lectric Co, who

I think are located in Florida....or at least you could at one time.

1939 plymouth. I think Chrylser liked to try things out on plymouth to make sure they were ok before sticking them on the rest of the lineup. The valiant was the first car with an alternator too. Then the next year the rest of the lineup got them.

[BobT-47P15]

Now, here's another question that finally came to mind...........since the

vacuum top was originated back in 1939, and probably was set up about

like mine.......did they use the same counterbalance spring on those

cars up thru 1948/early 49? All these Plymouths used the "blind quarter"

style top with no rear, side windows.

(It's now obvious the other brands used a different design top works

due to having rear side windows.)

Anyone have a 1939, 40 or 41 parts manual that shows/or describes that spring?

[blucarsdn]

The parts books are very vague about the conv top return spring on the vacuum operated tops which came out first on the '39's... Many cars are missing these springs.

My car had the springs, during the course of rebuilding the top assembly and talking to other people with 39's, I found that I had a very rare item.. I talked to several spring and conv top suppliers.. the common response was the springs were not needed and/or convert the assembly to electric or electric over hydraulic.

I have found a company will reproduce my springs..... I am having ten sets made. I have four sets pre-sold...

Bill

[Gary Manes]

For heavens sake, share the name of the company which is making the copies for you.

I woud love to have some made of several of mine. I spent several days on the internet a couple of years ago trying to find any companies that would copy or custom make springs based on submitted specs, etc. Obviously, to no avail.

Would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

[BobT-47P15]

Gary, I sent you a PM on the subject.

[49roadster]

Add to the list the 1949 to 52 Wayfarer soft tops which used "Armstrong" With two small helper springs.

[BobT-47P15]

Ok, thanks. How long were those springs?

[blucarsdn]

I went absolutely nuts calling all over the U.S. looking for a company that could, or would reproduce the return springs for a '39 Plym conv.

As a result of my very popular topic on the POC Bulletin about the restoration of my '39 Plym conv, I had people from all over the world contacting me for info and parts for the '37-41 DPCD open cars.

Sometimes we get tunnel vision and can't see the forest for the trees.. That happened to me with the springs.. One day I noted that there was a company less than a block from my shop... The sign over the door said Spring Industries, I stopped one day, walked in and asked what they did.... They make coil springs, large, small, big and little in all shapes...PROBLEM SOLVED.

It is very pricey to get just one or two springs made, as a rule their minimum is twenty, however, nothing is impossible, some things just take longer and cost more.

I have attached a pic of my springs showing the overall length, the wire size is a large #10, I do not know what the spring rate is.

I have also attached a couple of drawings showing the top assemblies, '39-42.

Since I now have a relationship with the Company, if I had a spring from a later car I could see about getting them reproduced.... Bill