Where is my water going? Or,, Tiny Bubbles

[jd52cranbrook]

I have a P23, dual carbs, cam, headers, HEI,, 230 crank and rods.

Compression is 153 +- 3 lbs in all cylinders, (I had the Edgy head surfaced once)

I also have a recovery tank on my radiator. I usually check the level weekly of the recovery tank, and fill up if needed.

Recently I went on a 200 plus mile trip up to Nevada. The next morning the recovery tank was empty, (50 oz tank), and a few inches was down in the radiator. So I am assuming the motor pushed out that much water while climbing the 8,000 miles. I also have a auto meter water temp gauge and it never got about 190 while climbing, as it was raining and cold going up.

That's one issue, ,, the next;

On the trip home is was much hotter out, and after getting down off the mountains I did drive though some hot flat lands, and the car temp rose to 195 once or twice, I tried to keep it below 200 by slowing down to 60mph.

The next day the same issue with the recovery tank and radiator being a bit low.

That's the second issue,,, the next;

When I fill up the radiator, and recovery tank and take the car out for short local trips, I hear tiny bubbles being pushed out from the radiator into the recovery tank, not a a lot, but enough to keep a beat with a song I guess. Then that stops after a few minutes, then later I can see that the radiator had sucked some of the water from the tank.

I have had a 7 lb cap on the radiator for the last 3 years, along with the recovery tank.

On the recent trip, I went with another fellow in a 50 Plymouth with no recovery tank, and he did not use any water at all going up or coming down. He also has a 7 lb cap on his radiator.

I also tested the radiator for a cracked block with the tester from Napa and the blue water did change some, but never close to yellow.

http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Detail.aspx?R=BK_7001006_0276642830

When we ran the car with the cap off the radiator, thermostat opened, we saw no bubbles in the water.

Soooooooo

where is my water going? also no smoke out the tail pipe.

Why the bubbles? They seem to be pushed out from air pockets, not from compression. That is just a guess. Could the pump be sucking air from somewhere?

I did change to a 13 lb radiator to see if that was the cause, although I get bubbles at first, no water has been taken from the recovery tank as yet, but it is too soon to tell if that was it.

[jd52cranbrook]

After checking this am, water has been taken out of the recovery tank. Although it could just be settling. I had the main cap open yesterday.

Any thoughts?

[Don Coatney]

Any visible leaks? Heater core? Petcock weeping? Freeze plug weeping?

I suspect this is a head gasket issue but my guess is you dont want to hear this:eek:

[Plymouthy Adams]

I have little faith in some of the aluminum heads and their casting integrity..it is obvious there is a problem...the bubbling indcates that the system is getting pressurized from the cylinder(s)..and you should be experiencing a boil over..have you indeed witnessed a boil over from the rad/recovery tank?

Next question, is your carpet wet? Possible heater valve leaking, if stock, these are notorious for this..

[Merle Coggins]

If you suspect that you have a combustion leak into your cooling system, either through the head gasket or elsewhere, you need to get one of these tools to test it. You put in the liquid and then draw in some air off the top of the radiator with the engine running. If it detects combustion gasses the fluid will change color.

[grady hawkins]

If you don' find a head gasket issue: you might try the water pump as some time the leaking water gets evaporrateed while the engine is running and only leaves a sign around the weep hole on the bottom of the pump shaft

[jd52cranbrook]

Any visible leaks? Heater core? Petcock weeping? Freeze plug weeping?

I suspect this is a head gasket issue but my guess is you dont want to hear this:eek:

No Leaking either by feel or site.

I do not rule out the head.

I have little faith in some of the aluminum heads and their casting integrity..it is obvious there is a problem...the bubbling indcates that the system is getting pressurized from the cylinder(s)..and you should be experiencing a boil over..have you indeed witnessed a boil over from the rad/recovery tank?

Next question, is your carpet wet? Possible heater valve leaking, if stock, these are notorious for this..

Carpet is dry, but will look further. It is a Vintage Air set up.

No boil over that I see.

If you suspect that you have a combustion leak into your cooling system, either through the head gasket or elsewhere, you need to get one of these tools to test it. You put in the liquid and then draw in some air off the top of the radiator with the engine running. If it detects combustion gasses the fluid will change color.

I have a tester from Napa, looks to be about the same thing. It did not turn yellow as it was suppose too, but it did go off the original blue color some.

They say if a leak is found, at least on a inline engine, that I can isolate it by pulling a plug wire at a time and testing. I may need more fluid, but I can try that. I guess.

I have had spark plug thread trouble on this head in the past. I have fixed that, but I think this head is haunting me.

I will check the water pump weep hole and see what I find.

Damm,,,, or dang,,,

[jd52cranbrook]

Being that I still have a stock head, I am going to put that back on and see what happens.

I will try to view the weep hole on the pump for water stain.

When I talked to Earl a few weeks ago he said if I have any further issues with the head to send it back and he will look into it. I may have to take him up on that offer.

If the problem persists then I guess I am either up a creek and the block is bad, or there must be hose or pump leak that I cannot see.

(crossing my fingers)

[greg g]

I had an edmunds head that I picked up from a fellow selling off some mopar flat head stuff. It is riddled with pin holes. it would pump coolant from several places as the piston of each cylinder was on its compression stroke. I removed it and milled the stock head, has 8 or 10K on it with no problems.

Remember the problems with early cast aluminum wheel holding air??

[steveplym]

Seems like if it weren't for bad luck you'd have no luck at all JD. Hate to hear you are having problems. Good luck figuring it out. If you are like me sometimes you feel like you just keep spending money on it. Gotta find that light at the end of the tunnel.

[jd52cranbrook]

Thanks, luckily all I am spending now is my time. If the head is bad, I think Earl will stand behind it. I am also replacing front glass this weekend, so it would be down anyway.

[rustyzman]

With the napa tester you have, if the fluid changes color from the blue to anything lighter (pale blue to yellow) it has detected a combustion leak. This is assuming of course that you did not suck up any coolant during the test.

Do you have any odor of fuel in the radiator? This is a dead giveaway. A solid cooling system smells like antifreeze, even old antifreeze smells like the air out of an old tire. Any combustion leak will stink and likely have at least a tinge of fuel to it.

If you are loosing this much coolant and have no external leaks, you are almost certainly burning it.

If you have the means you can confirm and narrow down a head gasket or head failure to a cylinder or two. Set up an air hose to thread into a spark plug hole. Better compression testers have quick coupled hoses that work great. A leakdown gauge is good too, though we really don't need to know the percent of leakdown. Bring cylinders to TDC compression stroke one at a time and hold in place with a breaker bar. Connect shop air to that TDC cylinder one at a time and with the radiator cap off look for bubbles. This will not hurt your engine at all, but keep a grip on the breaker bar. The one or two cylinders that are the culprits will cause bubbling in the radiator. Remember, while you do this test, any air bubbles in the radiator are a combustion leak. If the system is tight, no bubbles will appear.

In terms of new test fluid, if you have patience you can take the used fluid that has changed color and stir it until it is dark blue again. It is basically BTB and reacts with CO2 to turn yellow. Stirring it long enough will infuse O2 into again and it will return to a useable state. If you have an acetelyne rig you can pump some straight O2 into it and acheive the same thing faster.

[jd52cranbrook]

Thanks Rustyzman

Good info, I have the head off already unfortunately, but I can certainly test the stock head once I get it on. I will have to find someone with a better nose than me.

Thanks very much for all of it.

[jd52cranbrook]

I put the stock head back on, with a used head gasket. Someone once told me if you heat the copper of the gasket with a torch before putting it on it would be reusable. At any rate I used a different one from the Edgy head, I didn't want to spend the money for a new one just to try a theory.

No more bubbles after about 50 miles. And no water loss after initial 2-3 warm ups. Going to drive it awhile to verify, then sending the head, (with it's gasket for kicks) back to have it magnafluxed and go from there.

I'm happy to have no water loss. Now I can get my AC re charged and enjoy the summer even more,,

Thanks to Rustyzman for all the help. Along with everyone on here.

[Merle Coggins]

Don't forget to retorque your head bolts once it's warmed up. Failure to do that could lead to another gasket leak

Merle

[jd52cranbrook]

will do, thanks.

[rustyzman]

Always happy to help when I can. Great to hear the good news.

I have done the heat and let cool naturally trick on used copper crush washers to anneal them when no replacements were available and it does work. It might be tough on something as large and thin as a head gasket though. Would be interesting to try sometime.

[greg g]

Good to hear she is driveable again. Hope your head deal with Edgy works out.

[jd52cranbrook]

Thanks, I hope it does too. Sent Earl a email this past week about it. No reply as yet but he could be busy. With this stock head on I am in no rush. I want the head right before it goes back on.

I had to drain the water today. I have had terrible luck with water neck leaks. Only a drip or two, but it bugs me. I have put the base of the water neck on a belt sander for flatness, but the area on the head is rough with pits.

I have tried several methods, this time I am just using RTV with a loose fit at first to let it harden. After that I tightened it down snug. Just now filled it and warmed it till the thermostat opened. So far so good. (fingers crossed)

If this doesn't work I am thinking of making a rubber gasket.

[rustyzman]

If you find regular silicone does not work, try cleaning the area thoroughly and removing all corrosion, coolant etc. Seal the outlet elbow to the head with Permatex 599 Grey. This is the stuff they use in metal to metal seals with no gasket on aluminum transmissions like hondas (just like fujibond or hondabond). It is a very good sealer that does a nice job when no gasket can be used. It also works with a paper gasket if you so choose.

Don't make a rubber gasket, it will extrude out and the results will be very unsatisfactory.

If a perfect surface is needed, you could also use a two part epoxy (grey type, JBWeld, etc.) on the surface of the head and on the elbow. Let is thoroughly cure and sand it true with a sanding block by hand. We do this on severly corroded aluminum intake manifolds on GM's all the time to save them rather replace them.

[jd52cranbrook]

Thanks,

Two days, about 75 miles, no leaks. Think I may have it.