New oils Bad for our older cars!

[bob westphal]

The following is a long read but is very important to people who own and drive older cars.

Bob

Oil is killing our cars...

Original from Keith M. Ansell of Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.

http://www.foreignpartspositively.com/

About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dialkyl

dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that

could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The

reduction of these chemicals in supplied oils was based on the fact

that phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage

catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into

our atmosphere.

A couple of months ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club

bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only

900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder

(Delta Cam) and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of

this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this

type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft

assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing that could

create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines

and had lubricated the camshaft properly. Then the bad news came out:

It's today's "modern" API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils

that are killing our engines: Meaning all flat tappet (cam follower)

equipped engines, as used in all BMC products, all British Leyland

products, most pushrod engines prior to 1980, early Volvos, American

high-performance engines and many others.

Next call: To a major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance

(Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using

during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won't fail in an

unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel

rated oil on flat tappet engines.

Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars

(Red Line Oil). Their response: "We are well aware of the problem and

we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our products".

They continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so

they don't have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the "new,

improved and approved" ones that destroy flat tappet engines! "We

just build the best lubricants possible". Sounds stupid, doesn't it,

New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our

cars.

To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of

performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to "warn us" of

the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call

that the representative was making only because of this problem to

warn their engine builders! "The reduction of the zinc, manganese and

phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers".

They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper

oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the

liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that

the first oil needs the additive but remain skeptical that the first

oil is all that is necessary. Their suggestion: Use diesel rated oils

such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and

gas stations.

This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA)

Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short

discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been

finding.

Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major

bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he

restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he

was "VERY" aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had

rectangular tappets that couldn't rotate and are having a very large

problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British

Bike community that verify all the "bad news" we have been finding.

Comp Cams put out "#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts". They

have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence

in the bulletin was "While this additive was originally developed

specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven

the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of

additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam

and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients

that the oil companies have been required to remove from the "off-the-

shelf oil".

Next question: Now what do we do?

From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) "Use oils rated for diesel

use", Delo. They have the ZDDP we need in

weights we are familiar with.

From Redline Oil: Early in 2007 they will be supplying a "break-in oil"

specifically for our cars.

From Castrol: They will be supplying "new oils" specifically

for our cars in early 2007.

For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is

attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to "Stand"

the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and

friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metals

of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high

pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is

squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present

on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need

for ZDDP in all diesel engines.

Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly

bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial

layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create

problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the

ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but

necessary according to the chemists.

Our cars are a small percentage of the total market and BIG

Corporate, the American Petroleum Institute and possibly government

have made decisions that are detrimental to our cars. This problem

isn't going away. The trend today is to lighter weight oils to

decrease drag, which increases mileage. Most of these seem to be

the "Energy Conservation" oils that we cannot use.

The "Energy Conservation" trend was first led by automakers to

increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other

chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles,

increasing pollution. Most of us don't have catalytic converters and

the mileage gains are not that significant.

On "modern" production cars, stay with the manufacturers'

suggestions. For any car produced before about 1990 the owner needs

to be aware that the factory suggested lubricant may have changed and

may not be applicable. Flat tappet, stock, performance or modified

may be affected. MGBs from 1975 to 1980 must choose to sacrifice the

cam or the catalytic converter as an example of how difficult the

decisions are becoming!

Yes, there is more! Castrol does understand our dilemma and is

actively looking into what it can do to support our cars. We can soon

expect to see products from them with specific application to classic

cars. Red Line will be offering a "break-in" oil soon after the first

of the year. Shell's Rotella will be good until about June or July of

2007 with possibly nothing after that date. Delo (Chevron) will also

be questionable after the new "CJ-4" standards come in the middle of

2007.

Now the important information: Oils that may be correct for our cars

today:

(As reported by manufacturers by 12-31-06, NOTE: many have changed

their recommendations over the last three months!

Castrol: Syntec 5W-40, Syntec 20W-50, Grand Prix 4-Stroke Motorcycle

oil in 10W-40 and 20W-50, TWS Motorsport 10W-60*, BMW Long Life 5W-

30*

*= full synthetic, available only at BMW dealerships

Red Line: 10W-30, 10W-40 (Synthetic oils)

Valvoline: VR-1 20W-50 (Conventional oil)

Amsoil: 20W-50(TRO), 10W-40(AMO), 15W-40(AME) & 20W-50(ARO)

Mobil: Mobil 1 5W-30 and 20W-50 (Synthetic)

Chevron: Delo 400

Shell: Rotella

What we are doing at Foreign Parts Positively has been difficult to

determine but with few options left, the following is what we are

forced to do. Some of our choices have been based on the

manufacturer' s willingness to help and specific reports. This list

will change in the next months with Castrol and Red Line adding

products just for our cars.

Break in: Delo 400 30W (A break-in oil will be available from Redline

soon!)

Conventional oil: Valvoline VR-1 20W-50

Synthetic: Red Line 10W-30 in newer engines, 10W-40 on older engines.

Break-in is now 3,000 miles (using Delo 400 30W) before changing to

running oil.

Oil change interval: 1 year or 18,000 miles with Red Line synthetic

1 year or 2,500 miles with conventional oil (Valvoline VR-1 20W-50).

Thank you to Castrol, Redline, Christiansen Oil, Valvoline, Mobil,

Shell, Standard Oil and Amsoil for input. We're sure this subject

will continue: Please forward any new information on this subject you

may encounter.

We have received some very interesting material from "Mr Moly" that

may be putting molybdenum disulfide (MoS) into this discussion. It

seems that ZDDP plus MoS is the best from the oil companies' opinion

but MoS by itself may be beneficial. Some racers swear by it. The

literature seems to support "Mr. Moly's" position.

Keith M. Ansell

Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.

[Don Coatney]

I have only one comment. Malarkey! I dont believe any of this. How are people now getting over 100,000 miles on old cars using new oil if the new oil dooms the old engines to failure?

[Plymouthy Adams]

tell me we are not going down that path AGIAN...

[rearview]

Let me get the popcorn. This is going to get interesting.

Bob

[Plymouthy Adams]

while you up get me some valium..this may take a bit...

[rearview]

Would that be name brand valium, or the generic ones without the detergent additives

(Hey, I tried to keep on topic)

[Plymouthy Adams]

at my age I probably need zinc added to my valium

[grey beard]

In forty-plus years working in the automotive world, we have seen the inception of exhaust emissions standards. Each step of the way in that direction has called for increasingly stringent design criteria from automotive engineers. The results we live with today are engines with higher ambient temperatures, higher compression pressures and more sophisticated valve train components and fuel delivery systems.

In spite of all these mandated changes, auto makers manage to deliver vehicles that run economically, dependably and more reliably than ever before. If anything is true of engines in use today it is that the lubrication requirements are MORE stringent than ever before. All three of the vehicles in my garage have overhead camshafts and timing chains. All three have over 100K miles and will all go that again, before they wear out.

If fear of the ideas expressed in this thread keep you up nights, then use diesel oil - better yet use synthetic, the best stuff out there. Meanwhile, I still buy my oil in 5 quart jugs at WallyWorld and change oil regularly. JMHO

[Norm's Coupe]

Well, I'll stick with my old Pensoil 10W 30W for my P15.

All that other stuff sounds like a big "Sales Pitch" to scare people into buying more extra additives to boost sales. Almost sounds like the "pitch" they used when they first came out with Marvel Mystery oil, etc. Ya gotta have it or else!

[vitamindart]

it was to my understanding that this is only a concern durring cam break in with a new flat tappet cam , i still run the same ol castrol that i have always run in everything from my daily cruser to my big block dart drag car and have never had a oil related failure yet

[55 Fargo]

Greybeard, what does Wallyworld call there oil in the states. We call it Tech 2000 here in Canada, the wallyworld oil here has to meet government specs, and has even beat out 3 major brands here in tests, Valvoline and Pennzoil are 2 of the 3 the Wallyworld beat out. The Tech 2000(wallyworld oil) is half the price of the other brands, the local Wallyworld oil change station Manager, knows I change my own oil, he claims it is very good oil, he has a lot of customers buying it in the 5 gallon pail. I use it on my 2 daily dirvers 2005 Dodge Caravan and 1994 Ford Ranger. The 48 Chrys gets Rotella 15w40...............The article is a wee bit of a stretch IMHO

[grey beard]

Rockwood,

You are absolutely correct in everything you say. It is my understanding that ALL motor oil sold in the States must show an API (American Petroleum Institurte) alphabeticfal code to demonstrate its ability to meet that group's standards. This is also true at our favorite oil store, aka Wallyworld

What is interesting to me is that even at that speldeiforous emporium, there is at least a 100 per cent variation in oil prices - sometimes among different brands of oil that carry identical API ratings. Now, fellas, none of our mommies raised dumb kids, so who can tell me what I'm getting for my larger buck$ when I buy expensive oil with the same ratings as cheaper oil.

Methinks whoever said, "There's a sucker born every minute," was spot on the money. (My shop is just 20 ft. from my computer, so I just drug in an oil jug.) Like you, I also like "fat" oil numbers. What I have now in my B1B is Pennzoil 20W-50, pretty neat stuff for older engines. The label says it exceeds SL, SJ and SH API ratings, which incidentially includes diesels. Not to shabby for $7.99 for five quarts. :)

[FMSPEED49]

My car needs oil? Oh crap. Hmmm , I thought I heard a funny noise. Do I just pour it into the hole in the side of the block? lmao

[Ed Griffin]

I've used Wally's Tech oil for a long time now in every vehicle we have other than the wifes new car which is still getting the dealer treament. One thing I've been curious of is who they actually get their oil from. It's like a fella told me once, doesnt matter what names on the oil filters he used, only so many companies actually make them and then someone else puts their name on them. I'm sure we've all seen this in other items as well.

Just before having the straight 6 300 replaced in my 81 Bronco it had blowby really bad. Throw a can of engine restore in and found at the Dollar store that they had very cheap oil which was "virgin oil". Didnt matter to me at the time because I was going through so much because of the blowby. It got me through until I was ready but I never figured out exactly what was "virgin oil."

[Don Coatney]

It got me through until I was ready but I never figured out exactly what was "virgin oil."

I found this answer on the web.

In Ancient Rome, the Vestal Virgins (sacerdos Vestalis), were the virgin holy priestesses of Vesta, the goddess of the hearth. Their primary task was to maintain the sacred fire of Vesta. The Vestal duty brought great honor and afforded greater privileges to women who served in that role. They were the only female priests within the Roman religious system.

In mythology, the infamous Tarpeia, daughter of Spurius Tarpeius, was a traitorous Vestal Virgin. Rhea Sylvia, who was raped by Mars and conceived Romulus and Remus, and Tuccia, whose chastity was questioned, were sometimes accounted prototypes of Vestal Virgins.

The discovery of a "House of the Vestals" in Pompeii made the Vestal Virgins a popular subject in the 18th century and the 19th century.

The objects of the cult were essentially the hearth fire and pure motor oil refined and drawn into a clay vase by the vestal virgins who went on to form the pure-oil-later company.

[grey beard]

Hey Shel,

That;s a pretty neat oil-pour-in hole! I'm curious. How'd it happen? What happened? Was it a rod? So far, I've only seen the number one rod do that on MoPar flatties. Guess any of 'em have the potential for it, if $h##t happens. Oh come on . . . . . . tell us the tale.

[Young Ed]

Dad did that to a flathead in his youth. Removed the bent rod and drove home on the other 5. Think thats what happened to the original engine in his convert.

[bob westphal]

I think it is important all you "nay sayers" realize that this article was written by a mechanic not an oil company exec! They have seen real problems with their customer's engines and done their research. Many years ago when I worked as a wrench in dealerships, I attended classes on many subjects pertanate to the automotive industry. The one thing I noted was that the manufactures worked with the companies that supply them. Of course one of their major suppliers are oil companies. These people work hand in hand with the design and developement of their products; ie; engines and oil to keep that engine running a long time. In the last two decades the types and viscosities of motor oils required for modern engines has changed drastically. Five years ago I could buy a straigjht weight oil at my local store. Now I have to special order it because the majority of cars on the roads need a lighter and different oil than the older cars I drive around. Why do they need a lighter and different oil? Because the engines are designed with closer tolerences, concepts of design, and purpose. When I was a kid nobody would use 5 weight oil in their engine because it would self destruct. All new cars use 5 weight oil! Would I run it in my old P15? NO WAY! Would I recommend the owners of the cars I restore use it? NO WAY!!

Most of old car nuts don't drive their cars much so I would say that they don't need to worry if they use the modern oils in their engine if they stay with an oil with a higher viscosity. As for me, I drive old cars a lot and I will continue to use oils designed for my engines. I don't think it's fun to have to pull a flat motor to replace the cam bearings and do an unecessary rebuild! Just call me lazy but don't call careless!

[48Dodger]

Really enjoyed your input Bob. These are the posts I truly look for. I believe that there are many car owners who don't understand what their car's performance numbers should be. They don't "feel" the power loss, the power surge, or power flutter. They run with vacum leaks, gummed up carbs, dry axils, and worn shocks. So why would anyone like that be concerned about oil. I race stock cars. Seems like I tear everything down weekly (or tear it up), and take note of the smallest of changes. Oil is a huge part of performance, so I appreciate the article you posted. Interestingly enough, I use VR-1 20-50w in all my classics and race car.

www.68mopar.com

48D

[Norm's Coupe]

Ok guys, now what do you do when two performance oil company exec's disagree? Who do you go with? That's a rhetorical question that I don't expect you to answer, nor do I really care. Just putting it out there for all to ponder. Bob posted that long article from an engineer, I'm now quoting a high performance oil manufacture exec., and what was published in an article in the March 07 issue of Rod & Custom, page 22.

QUOTE:

"Oil additives are not recommended except by people who sell them. The additive packs already in the oil have been carefully created. Introducing additional additives can potentially reduce performance, or cause serious engine damage."

END QUOTE.

That quote came from the co-founder, Kelly Tidwell, Pure Power!, EHP Lubricants and Lifetime Filters. http://www.GoPurePower.com The article is 2 1/2 pages long.

[Normspeed]

My plan was to use a heavy viscosity Mobil 1 synthetic after break in. I've been especially impressed by the results of high temp tests on Mobil 1 vs regular oils. I also figured the synthetic would be way less likely to form sludge in the chronic sludge areas on a flathead 6. But I read a similar article before my engine was broken in, and I went with Rotella instead. Actually I think no matter what I run, given the large amount of attention and frequent services on the car, any problems are likely to turn up long after I'll be worrying about it. That said, if I decide to build up one more flathead, I'll run Mobil 1 in it just for comparison.

A while back, Trailer Boat magazine ran corrosion tests on all the major oils including synthetics. In their tests, the winner by a mile was good ole Pennzoil. Who would have guessed?

[Don Coatney]

[quote=Don Coatney;

The objects of the cult were essentially the hearth fire and pure motor oil refined and drawn into a clay vase by the vestal virgins who went on to form the pure-oil-later company.QUOTE]

Hard to believe I posted a spoof and got no comments.

[Normspeed]

Don, I was too busy groaning at the pun to reach my keyboard. :D

But then again, did you miss my Finland joke?

[Don Coatney]

Don, I was too busy groaning at the pun to reach my keyboard. :D

But then again, did you miss my Finland joke?

Norm;

I did not miss the finland joke at all:D Keep em comeing

[Guest dmartin_egroup]

Mr. Westphal indicated flat lifter/cam wear was the original problem noted. My wife's 2003 Buick has roller lifters; how about other engines? I would think plenty of flat lifter engines are still around and oil companies would not sabotage them by producing a basically ineffective oil.