Welding Forged Parts (Spindles)

[James_Douglas]

I know this will not be popular as several folks here have purchased kits with lowered, welded, spindles.

It appears that the forged spindles have been welded.

As a general rule, welding on a forged part in a safety critical area is a bad idea...unless.

Unless you have a certified welder with years of experience doing this type of work.

I find it hard to believe that most any hot rod shop can keep such a highly skilled welder on their staff.

I only welded one forged part on a hot rod when I was a kid. The man that did it was very skilled.

He was one of the welders that did welding on the Lunar Module for the Apollo moon missions and was kicked loose when the Apollo project was killed in the early 1970's.

He spent four hours, while I watched, welding a steering (pitman) arm. Let me say that again for affect: He spent four hours on one small pitman arm!

The work was methodical and very detailed. At todays shop rate, that would make each part cost about $500 at current CA shop rates, Or to put it another way that would be about $1000 for two spindles.

If the spindles cost a couple of hundred bucks then I have to wonder...

Before the welder would let me put my pitman arm on my hot rod Model "A" Coupe, he also insisted that I take it to the local Veterinarian office and they x-rayed it. He looked at the x-ray before allowing me to use it.

This welder told me that about 10% of the time a welded forged part will fail an x-ray and show micro fishers that can lead to cracks and failure. Given this man training and background, I have never doubted anything he told me about welding. As a kid I crashed his welds and not one ever showed so much as a ripple.

Therefore, I am not saying that the welded spindles being sold are in fact unsafe. But the price being charged for these spindles leads me to the conclusion that the amount of time being spent on making the modifications is much less that one would expect for a safety critical part.

I would not be comfortable purchasing such a part without a better way of knowning the level of Q & A being used in the entire process of making them.

I also am not comfortable with the users of these parts coming the other direction at me when I am driving down the road.

If there are any expert welders out there, with experience with welding on forged metal in safety critical components...I would like to hear your thoughts on this subject.

Best, James

[jd52cranbrook]

25,000 miles on my dropped spindles from Plydo. I'm not concerned in the least.

If you have concerns, I live in the south bay, but I drive all over.

Oh wait,, I'm not a welder.

Edited April 11, 2010 by jd52cranbrook

[James_Douglas]

I am glad that your spindles are fine. Just like 99% of the Toyota's out there. But then there is that 1%...

The point is, in a safety critical part, how much should be taken for granted when factory ENGINEERED parts are modified by people. Are the hot rod shops that are welding the spindles overseen by mechanical engineers and certified welders ?

If a part like this fails, I assume that those that purchased them have the deep pockets to pay for that lifetime care for that 10 year old quadriplegic that one created ?

Hyperbole yes, but my point is where do we as hobbyists draw the line on what modified parts are reasonably safe and which are not? Is it acceptable to just take the sellers word for it?

I stared this thread to have a reasonable and technical discussion. Just stating that one set of welds works fine adds nothing to the discussion.

I am looking forward to a thoughtful and insightful discussion of this topic.

James

[jd52cranbrook]

If you really are serious about reasonable discussion, then I think you would get your best results from a true welding site. But I doubt those are the intentions. Facts, test cases, count more than what someone may observe IMO.

It's been 5 years and I have yet to hear of a failed lowered car. If anyone has I would like to know of it.

This is a a open forum from what I understand, as long as friendly and polite. I think any post add something to a topic. Even if it was just my two cents worth. Sorry if I did not fit into your centered category.

[James_Douglas]

You can say anything you please. it may not add anything of worth to the topic, but by all means say what you like.

As to my intension's. They are just as I stated. A discussion of matters related to the safety of welding a forged, safety critical, suspension part.

James

[Andydodge]

My 1940 Dodge has shortened, welded steering arms, the ones that the tie rods attach to. These were done in 1975 by a licenced Automotive Blacksmith, who was used by various Australian racing car builders to do this exact work. I did not see him do the work, but they were shortened 1" which reduced the steering from 3 house blocks to a normal steering lock. The car uses a shorthened Austin 1800 rack and pinion. From memory the work required that the arms be reforged and welded or vice versa.........they have not been x-rayed and I suppose that is something that should have been done. They are still on the car and working fine. But point taken...........andyd

[jd52cranbrook]

You can say anything you please. it may not add anything of worth to the topic, but by all means say what you like.

James

Thanks so much for your blessings on this.

I'd would be interested of any failures, if any? Or is this dealing in pure discussion and theory, far away from what is truth? Do you have a picture of the weld in question?

Edited April 11, 2010 by jd52cranbrook

[Frank Elder]

Thanks so much for your blessings on this.

I'd would be interested of any failures, if any? Or is this dealing in pure discussion and theory, far away from what is truth? Do you have a picture of the weld in question?

Just let it go Jd, when James gets like this he can go on for pages and days on end, look up one of his threads on OD transmissions and george asche.

[Plymouthy Adams]

actually, the spindles are not molested in any manner...

[jd52cranbrook]

Just let it go Jd, when James gets like this he can go on for pages and days on end, look up one of his threads on OD transmissions and george asche.

Thanks Frankie, I am aware. I consider it a sign summer is here when I see one.

I didnt think so either Tim. I would be more concened welding a Mustang II front end on.

[james curl]

James, the up rights are what everyone installs and they are made of tubing and are not forged in any manner. The term dropped spindles on old Mo Par's is a mis-statement. New up rights are welded up from steel tubing. If you use Fat Man Raised Up Rights he is an Engineer, do not know if he uses a certified Aircraft structural welder or not and do not know if he is a PE. But would think that since he manufactures all sorts of A frames for a lot of different vehicles including pick ups he would do some sort of structural testing and use certified welders.

[PatS....]

I think part failure is an issue with any vehicle of any age. It's something to seriously consider when those parts are critical front end parts.

Even if the part is factory engineered and manufactured, there is sill an error/failure factor.

I have never heard of a dropped spindle failure or a factory spindle failure.

There are a couple of guys over on the Desoto forum, J.R. and R.O. who could tell you all about dropped spindles for your DeSoto, and other modifications.

Edited April 12, 2010 by PatS....

[dezeldoc]

I have welded forged with both mig and tig and it welds pretty nice. i have never had any of the parts i welded break or crack for that matter. a lot of the vendors do not make a lot of their parts in house but rather farm it out for cost reasons. you want scary look at some of the crappy welds that has gone into the "rat rods"!

[Don Coatney]

James;

Interesting thought, however there are a couple of missing pieces. I have never looked at the after market dropped spindles (I have no interest in lowering cars) I cannot attest to the welds nor if they are actually re-welded forged originals or newly fabricated pieces using different materials.

However from a liability point of view any manufacture of automotive after market structural steering components must know the risks involved and do there homework prior to placing the items on the market. If I was a member the 1% failure group you can bet that I would team up with JW Wentworth (or any law firm) and push the liability issue to the maximum.