Need to pull a motor

[jmooner3]

Hey Guys - I need to pull a motor out of a 1949 pilothouse truck. I'm going to freshen it here if I can avoid a machine shop bill. 5 cylinders are good one rusted, hoping I can hone it, new rings and put it back. I have never pulled a motor and could use some of the wealth of knowledge, pointers, and pitfalls from the forum... I received some good pointers from "Bobacuda", but welcome whatever you got to help me make it a "good" learning experience for me and my 10 and 7 year old boys...They are interested and the last thing I need is to hit a roadblock that makes it a bad experience for all of us, trying to keep my cussing to a minimum! That's where you guys come in!

Key points,

Engine is a 25" desoto as the original 23" was replaced before I got it.

Rad looks to be welded or at least remounted forward to allow for the longer block and the front mounts are moved forward too. The Engine is seized, been soaking for a month in various snake-oils including Kroil - NoGo.

Head is off, Coil, Oil filter, carb off. I suspect I need to pull intake and exhaust starter, generator... all that seems straight forward.

How to disconnect the motor properly, what and how to disconnect the trans...Basically, Where and how to break the motor from the drive gear? And then best way (tricks) to lift out and put back in.

Where to go first?

Thanks Jay

[Guest Kuster13]

Jay,

I think it's best to pull the front sheet metal and rad. This allows so much more room to work.

Clear all wires and fuel line. If you leave the bell housing in the truck you can leave the Master cylinder alone. I personally have left the bell housing in the truck to avoid the pedals getting hung up. You will have to remove the trans and flywheel. It's pretty straight forward.

If you do leave the bell housing on the motor then maybe get some help to watch that side so the pedals clear.

Once the motor is out it's best to check and replace the rubbers for the rear mounts while you can get at them.

Have fun

Tom

[48Dodger]

This video I did might help. I agree that taking off the "doghouse" is a good way to remove the motor.

Dan is working on his truck motor this winter, its a good thread to follow right now.

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=16161

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=18010

48D

[Dave72dt]

A portable crane can be used for both the sheetmetal and the motor removal/installation. An engine stand will make working on the motor more comfortableand safer than putting it on a bench and wrestling it around. They're relatively inexpensive and easily sold if you'll only use it once. Above all think safety. You'll need to keep three sets of hands, fingers and toes out of pinch and smash points. A pair of gloves will help keep knuckles from getting bloody when breaking stubborn bolts loose.

[grey beard]

Jay,

If you've never pulled a motor, you are in for a baptism by fire. These are not the easiest things to get out. In point of fact, they're downright nasty. Read over some of trhe older posts on this forum on the subject, and you'll learn the meny reasons why. These guys don't lie.

Desoto engines weigh nearly twice what a small block cheverley does, and are long enough to be a real handful on any engine stand except a truly industrial heavy duty one. Most pull the engine with trans, bell housing and flywheel as an assembly. This whole enchilada will weigh in the neighborhod of a thoussnd pounds, give or take ten or twenty - they're really heavy, and WalMart-type engine hoists are usually not up to the task.

If you decide to proceed, please consider the suggestions you already have from others on this thread - pull the nose sheetmetal. It will take only a few hours' time and make the job infinitely easier both coming out and going back together.

When you come out of the frame with the assembly, the clutch and brake pedals will interfere with the steering column. The brake pedal cannot be remobed reasonably with the cab on. Easier to pull the steering box-column-steering wheel unit asseembly. Like i said, this job is not for the faiht of heart . . .

I overhauled my own Pilothouse engine in the frame. Cylinder taper was at a minimum, and the crank was still very nice. I replaced all bearings, piston assemblies and rings plus timing components and did a valve job - all in the frame. i now have neafly 1500 happy miles on it. It cann be done. Biggest challenge is getting the -block water jacket and oil galley passages cleaned enough to put new parts in the block - lots of work here, too, but it is more slow cleaning with patience as opposed to the gross motor skills you will need to pull the block.

Whichever way you decide to go, please keep in mind the fact that this forum has men with a combined experience of several hundred years - mostly with MoPar stuff. They can become a tremendous resource for you, all along thre way - in R & R'ing the engine as well as in the rebuilding process.

It's best you understand at the onset that this project is likely to run into the two thousand dollar range, till you have all new parts and machine work, even if you do your own engine building. I spent nearly a thousand on mine with the crank staying in the block. Not too many corners you can cut, once you've committed yourselff to the task.

Let us know how you decide to proceed. We'll be glad to help.

Good Luck

[jmooner3]

Grey Beard - Thanks for the words of wisdom, The stand I have has a chev 350 on it and it feels flimsy with that! From what you stated here it won't hold the Desoto. I'm game for working on it in the frame. However, I gotta get the oilpan off to get at the rod caps (especially for the stuck cyl) this 25" block extends 2" forward and causes the pan to be up over the cross member in front. I figure I can take off the front motor mounts and jack up the motor some, will that give me enough clearance to get the pan off? I haven't pulled the front sheet metal yet. 48 Dodger THANKS -The video will help there (gotta figure out the radiator, it is a cob-job welded in, different than the video shows.) Once I have a clearer look in there I may decide to give it a go in the frame - nothing lost in trying! How did you get your pan off with the engine in the truck? Head is off the engine, but the rest is generally in tact, should I try to clean out water jacket before I open the engine any more or just go ahead and work on getting the pan off? Jay

[grey beard]

Jay,

The critical issue that will tell you if you can do an in-frame overhaul is cylinder taper. You gotta' get the pan off and the pistons out before this is knowable. Then you will need a bore gauge - you can rent or borrow these if you don't have your own - to see how much taper or wear is present in your cylinders. If there is more than .010 or .012 thou. difference top to bottom diameter, the block will have to be bored - expensive and this requires R n' R-ing the whole thing. To overhaul a block with excessive taper is just a waste of parts and labor, IMHO.

The greatest amount of wear will be just a 1/4-inch below the head gasket deck block surface. The bottom diameter will be virtually unchanged from new specs., so you will want to compare these two diameters. A good quick-and-dirty rule of thumb is to look critically at the ring ridge found on the top of each cylinder. IF there is no ridge, you are in tall cotton, and there is likely no wear at the top. If you can catch your nail on the ridge, or if it is so pronounced that you can't get your pisons out past it, you need to have the block bored. The ridge at the top of a worn cylinder is the original size of the cylinder. The wear is below it, where the piston rings stopped on each upward stroke.

Good Luck

[tinlizzy]

Pulling the engine is the easiest if the sheet metal, radiator and radiator housing are removed. I decided to pull the engine without removing the tranny and in the process broke the pilot bearing in the crank. In my case this was no big deal as I was redoing the whole thing. I unbolted the steering housing from the frame and dropped it down. I then had to cut the bolts on the rear mounts as they were rusted beyond getting a wrench on the bolt head. Once the rear bolts were out, front ones were threaded into the front member, I used my cherry picker and a pry bar to slide the rear mounts off the supports. The ones on mine had a sleeve down through the rubber bushing and it took a lot of grunt work to get them off but finally won out in the end. Only four bolts held tranny on.

Get a good pair of mechanics gloves to protect your hands and keep the old grease from your fingers to a minumum. Everything you take off the engine will make it easier to lift. Would help if you had a buddy but it can be done by yourself, I did.

Good luck.

[Don Coatney]

I rebuilt (not sure what overhaul means) my 25" Desoto engine on the bench not a stand. First off I am a big guy and engine stands are built for small guys so the working height was not right for me. Because I am a big guy I did not have a problem flipping the engine from top up to bottom up and in between on the bench. Do what you are comfortable with.

[Tony WestOZ]

engine stands are built for small guys so the working height was not right for me.

I can understand where your coming from on this Don.

Though I have had a jack in my engine stands fo awhile to raise and lower the engine I have just fitted the a new system to the other stand.

Needs some fine tuning but it works ok.

[jmooner3]

Thanks for sharing guys! Don - great looking motor! I've got the "doghouse" unbolted, just waiting on a buddy fo help lift it off. I'm in kinda tight quarters and it will need to come all the way up and over to get it out. After that I'll figure how much I can do in the truck and look again at pulling it out. Greybeard - There is no visible wear at the tops of the cyl a little surface rust but no real ring ridge edge to catch a nail on. (The first glimps of sunshine on this project so far...feels like tall cotton to me.) I'll need to get the pistons out and get a bore guage to be sure rebuilding without boring is even an option...Next step get the sheetmetal and rad out of the way...Then on to the next......Thanks again guys.

[Dave72dt]

Pull the rad out before even attempting to lift all that sheetmetal out of the way. It's heavy and easily damaged and with it out, will make handling the front sheetmetal much easier.

[jmooner3]

Thanks Dave, the front clip of mine is "modified" by the previous owner. The radiator(probably not original) is pushed forward ~ 2inches to accomodate the 25" desoto block. The rad mount flange is welded to the front of the "U" frame that the fenders and rest of the doghose appear to built around...It's all unbolted as of today and ready to lift off... in a holding pattern till help arrives.

[grey beard]

Jay,

With no ring ridge evident, you are a shoe-in for an in-frame overhaul. I found my pistons all had the top ring land hammered out badly, so I replaced the set. I strongly recommend Terrell Machine, Terrell, TX for your parts for two excellent reasons. First, their prices are just about the best, and secondly, their counter men know MoPar engines better'n most. They won't sell you the wrong parts. You can roll new main bearings in - top and bottom - with the crank in place, as I did. Iused a flattened cotter pin in a journal oil hole to roll the old upper shells out and back in. Works pretty slick.

If you go this route, do pop all your block core plugs and the water distribution tube behind your water pump, and flush out that water jacket within an inch of its life. I made up a blow gun for my compressor with a 24-inch copper tube that was bendable, to get into all the crevices. You will find that sixty years of sediment have slumped to the bottom left side of the block, where the water jacket is at its lowest. Clean it out like it was going to have your dinner served on it.

Likewise the valve chamber areas. I took more than a quart of hard dry sludge out of my own engine in this area. Start with a putty knife, and graduate to solvent and brushes. Finish up with a tooth brush and lacauer thinner. All this stuff is automatically cleaned when you have your block tanked like most guys do, but for an in-frame job, this is the only way.

Good Luck. Let us know how it goes.

[jmooner3]

Dave - Thanks for the info and encouragement - I'll be jacking the motor up to work on getting the oil pan off, after I have the sheet metal out of the way...Any last minute "watch-out" stuff I should know before jaking the motor is welcome...how high can I go before I risk breaking something in the drive train? Also do you have contact info for the "Terrell Machine shop" you mentioned in the post? I googled it and found one in SC but not Texas.

Jay

[Don Coatney]

Terrill Machine Flathead Parts 254-893-2610 (TX)

[grey beard]

Jay,

My own truck has the 218, so I don't know about the larger engine, but mine is only two inches shorter than yours. I did not need to jack my block up to pull the pan. Only reason I had for raising the front was to install the new front motor mount.

If you proceed with your engine work, please know that the front engine timing cover-oil pan-crank pulley area is sota' congested, and difficult to work on. With the sheet metal out of the way, you should have no problems, but be careful here. There is at least one bolt into the timing cover with the head on the back side going forward, as memory serves, and there is a small moon-shaped aluminum piece that screws onto the bottom of the cover that is the oil pan front curved mating surface that is very easy to break if you are not careful.

Finally, it is normal for front crank oil seal lips to wear a groove in the cranl pulley. A speedy sleeve would fix this, if you find this wear. My pulley was fine, but something is unhappy with my own front seal - I now have a drip. and this means pulling the hood, radiator and fan, just to find the problem - no fun for old men . . .

Bearing oil clearance is sorta' critical on these motors - more so than on modern V8's - long stroke, ya' know. You want to hue pretty close to factory specs here. My own crank looked nice, and the old bearings were standard. I replaced these with new standard size, and wound up with almost .003 clearance on my rods - waaay too much for a happy motor. On the advice of an old flathead mechanic, I added a .001 shim strip between each lower rod cap and the bearing insert - something i have never done before, and never even heard of - and the PLastigauge clearance reading dropped to .001 - much nicer. My engine now carries 45 psi all the time - hot or cold, at idle or any speed - the gauge just stays there all the time it is running - just the way I like it. They used to make .001 and .002 oversize bearing inserts for worn engines, but I haven't seen them advertised for many years. Just watch these clearances very closely as you go back together.

The front-most valve guide is the highest in elevation, and gets the least oil from the rods and splash, due to its location. It is also an exhaust valve guide. I was able to knurl all my guides and tighten them up nicely - except this front one. Had to replace it. Fortunately this is easy, and Terrell has 'em. If you don't have knurling tools, might just want to replace them all, but they then must be reamed back to size, afte installation. I have these tools if you need 'em. Let me know.

Good Luck. Keep us posted as to your progress.

[jmooner3]

You guys are the gods of Mopar! Honestly without the knowledge y'all are willing to share, this country-boy from Vermont would not have figured out where to start...

Thanks Dave, The 25 inch block extends up over teh front cross member so teh pan cannot drop straight down. It looks like I need to pull steering linkage and jack the motor to get clearance... Pulling the pan, popping off rod caps and pulling pistons is pretty straight forward. I think, I remember it is important to keep caps with rods... As for the valves this is all new to me... You mentioned " knurl all my guides and tighten them up nicely" and "if replaced they then must be reamed back to size, after installation." - I also have read a bit about grinding seats etc... How will I know if I need to go deeply into the valves or not? I'm certainly not building a racecar...The goal I need to keep in front of me (and my checkbook) is I want to get this truck running so my boy can drive it out of the barn... Then get brakes in it, and then wiring, beyond that future is not clear. While I have the engine apart I want to attack the areas you guys from experience know to be major known problems and if there are parts I can determine are good and don't need additional attention I just as soon not spend the long dollar or time...I'm not lazy just broke and with two young boys in sports 'sparetime' is not abundant.

What parts are an absolute must to "freshen" this engine: Obvioulsy I'll need head gasket and oil pan gaskets. If I can free the one bad piston I can get them out and mic the cyl...I suspect this measurement will determine what size rings I need- how will I know if my pistons are re-usable (you mentioned top ring land hammered out - how to measure or tell if my pistons are bad or re-useable?), frost plugs, (I will douche out the block as you suggested within an inch of it's life) any other seals or hardware needed for the coolent path beyond plugs, do I need a water distribution tube or just super-clean the one in there? Another stupid question, it looks like the valves on a flathead are accessable from two side pannels - you mention some difficulty in the timing cover area - do I need to get into the timing area to do the pistons and valves?

Hoping to have some time this week to pull sheet metal, get it on stands, and pull the wheels so I can begin looking more closely at next steps.

[JoelOkie]

I just changed the oil pan in my truck from a car pan to the front sump. It had also been dropped hard, or ball peined, onto the drag link and straight axle to make steering clearence. While it is not a totally pleasant job, it is certainly not the hardest thing a guy will ever do. Of course your engine being longer, perhaps none of this will help you one bit, but what I did was drop the draglink, unbolt the pan, remove the splash gaurd pan on the driver's side, and jacked the truck up on the front cross member, leaving the wheels on the ground, and it quickly gained the clearance over the straight axle needed to let the pan come down enough to come out, which it did easily, after I reached in and un-threaded the pickup screen, which was still catching the back end. Of course there is plenty of room to go back with the pan that is made for trucks, so the show was over at that point. It sure is a welcome sight to look under there and see all that space between the draglink and the straight axle, and the oil pan.

Like I said, don't know if it would work for you, but maybe if you jack up high enough at the cross member you can gain some helpful distance. I hope you are able to get the pan out without too much trouble, as it has to be aggravating.

By the way, as I wasn't going to need the old beat up pan any longer, I had a pretty easy back up plan, that involved a 4" grinder with a cut-off wheel.

Good luck with your engine cleaning up and running with a hopefully minimal amount of work to be done. While I have never done it myself, I have in fact seen an engine overhauled exactly like grey beard is telling you can be done, while the engine is left in the car, on a 50 model Plymouth my dad did under a carport when I was about 10 years old. The car ran well enough, and long enough, to go through a couple of my siblings. Joel

Edited November 21, 2009 by JoelOkie

[jmooner3]

Thanks Joel, I'm thinking that way too. I figure without the draglink and allowing the suspension to hang I may gain the space needed. I didnt' think of dropping the pan onto the cross before jacking the frame...Good idea I may get away with less of a pain in the butt then I think! The only show stopper is the pan's front hanging 2" over the front member(not original block it's 2" longer) doesn't allow it to drop straight down. I figure once I get the sheet metal off and have a good look at what I am up against I'll figure out how big of a hammer I need to get it off there ;-)

As always - Any other tips welcome!

Jay

[JoelOkie]

I don't blame you for wanting to take the path of least resitance. If you are going to leave the engine in the truck to work on it, and the only reason to pull it out is to get that oil pan off, it almost looks to me like it would be simpler to just drop the drag link AND the straight axle if you had to, to get that oil pan out from the bottom. Let it down and out the back, off of the cross member. It doesn't take long to do that either, and it's easy to get to. I'd hate like heck to think about having to pull an engine just to get an oil pan off. Good luck, Joel

[jmooner3]

Sheetmetal with rad intact came off slick as heck. Roped it up to the rafters and out of the way. Started pulling some of the spaghetti out of the way, pervious owner rewired with yellow wire and left some old stuff...pretty confusing mess. Once I get the motor rolling over, I'll get back to the wiring. I'm going to pull the starter, generator, etc...should I pull the distributor off and out of the way too? If so how. I'm going to do as sugested, pull the frostplugs and water pump to get the water distribution system douched out. Suggestions welcpome.

As for the oil pan, just got the doghouse off yesterday, closer look the pan is definitely shoehorned in over the steering and more importantly over the front cross member so it wont drop straight down. Funny thing with this 25" Desoto, I pryed on the generator to get the belt off and when I did the entire engine moved??? The front motor mounts that were altered to make the 25" motor fit where the orighinal 23 was were never welded to the frame. Engine is bolted to two pieces of U stock and set on the frame but the "yoke" that the two mounts are bolted to moved and the mounts slid on the cross member... The engine appears to be cocked a bit to the pass side (away from the steering box) is that normal? I'll tack these mounts eventually ( I pry left then right and the engine settles right were it is cocked a bit-concerns?) Regardless, had a good laugh that this thing was running 15 years ago just as it is engine flopping... It will save me a step to jack up the motor to pull the pan!

The boys and I tinkered until 10PM - great questions and they are learning the things I didn't have the opportunity to at the young age! We are building memories now!

[tinlizzy]

Just looking at Don's motor on his work bench. Thinking to myself what in the world is his bench made of? That is a lot of weight to have on a wooden bench. Must be really sturdy.

[Don Coatney]

Just looking at Don's motor on his work bench. Thinking to myself what in the world is his bench made of? That is a lot of weight to have on a wooden bench. Must be really sturdy.

I built the bench to support the weight. I wanted a bench that would not move when I am using a hack saw in the vise. The back side is supported by the garage wall.

[Young Ed]

I think I'd look at extending the front engine mount back to the standard engine mounting bolt holes so you aren't changing the elevation of the engine. That would also solve your left to right issue.