Clutch failure

[Jim Yergin]

Not a good day. Had to have the car towed home when the clutch went out. Was driving back home from a town 40 miles away when the clutch began to slip. Figured I would try to get home but it got progressively worse until I lost it all together and the car would not move. Just before it quit I could smell the clutch burning. I have less than 1000 miles on the clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing. I was going to have to pull the transmission anyway to reinstall the overdrive transmission so not too much more work to replace the clutch. I will be interested to see what happened. Any ideas? Mis-adjusted clutch? Defective pressure plate?

Jim Yergin

[Norm's Coupe]

Was your clutch new or an NOS one when you installed it? If NOS, the pads on the plate could have just been too old and dried out.

Also, if you had an oil leak that got oil onto the clutch plate, that would cause it to burn it out faster too, in addition to the things you mentioned.

[Rodney Bullock]

Wow Jim, that's disturbing. You did such a good job on your car. These little things are stopping you from really enjoying your car. I remember something like that happening to me, someone on the forum sent me a clutch assenbly months before. I was smelling it and it was slipping bad. The pressure plate springs had become very worn. I had it changed before it gave out altogether. Somehow the fork was riding engaged on the throw out bearing. I might not be explaining it correctly however the disc was engaged even when the clutch pedal was released.

[Jim Yergin]

Rodney,

I have been thinking the same thing. Maybe when I switched out the overdrive transmission to fix it, some how the clutch release bearing is now hanging up on the input shaft of the substitute transmission and is not allowing the clutch to fully engage thereby wearing out the clutch disc. Should be interesting when I take it a part.

Jim Yergin

[Jim Yergin]

Was your clutch new or an NOS one when you installed it? If NOS' date=' the pads on the plate could have just been too old and dried out.

Also, if you had an oil leak that got oil onto the clutch plate, that would cause it to burn it out faster too, in addition to the things you mentioned.[/quote']

Norm,

I purchased the disc and pressure plate so long ago I do not even remember. If I remember corectly I got them from Mitchel Motors back when it was still a mail order catalogue business.

Jim Yergin

[martybose]

A friend of mine once put in a clutch disk backwards, so that the hub prevented the disk from fully engaging the flywheel. It worked for a little while, at least until he stood on it. Then he had to replace it.

Marty

[RobertKB]

Bummer. I hope it is a fairly easy fix. It is never fun working the bugs out of a newly done car but when they are gone your car will be very reliable.

[Joe Flanagan]

Sorry to hear that, Jim. Let me know if you need an extra set of hands. I will be very curious to know what happened, so please keep us posted. If you're going to work on it this weekend, maybe I can come out and bring Rodney with me.

[Jim Yergin]

Sorry to hear that, Jim. Let me know if you need an extra set of hands. I will be very curious to know what happened, so please keep us posted. If you're going to work on it this weekend, maybe I can come out and bring Rodney with me.

Joe,

Thanks for the offer. You and Rodney are welcome anytime but I am not sure of my schedule this weekend. My in-laws are coming to visit on Saturday. I hope to at least make a start on removing the transmission some time over the weekend. Figure to do a little bit at a time. One nice thing about the car being a "play thing" and not necessary every day transportation.

Jim Yergin

[Jim Yergin]

In checking out possible replacement parts for my clutch, I noticed that the D24 non-fluid drive Dodges came with the 10" clutch as standard. The 10" was only optional in my '41 Plymouth (and I think the same clutch size was used with both the '41 201 and the P15 218 motors). I changed out the original 201 engine for a 230 (as was used in the D24's) but used the '41 201 standard clutch parts. Just wondering if there is any need to go to the 10" clutch with the 230 motor.

Jim Yergin

[moose]

In checking out possible replacement parts for my clutch, I noticed that the D24 non-fluid drive Dodges came with the 10" clutch as standard. The 10" was only optional in my '41 Plymouth (and I think the same clutch size was used with both the '41 201 and the P15 218 motors). I changed out the original 201 engine for a 230 (as was used in the D24's) but used the '41 201 standard clutch parts. Just wondering if there is any need to go to the 10" clutch with the 230 motor.

Jim Yergin

I'd say go to the 10" clutch. Especially with the OD.

[Don Coatney]

Jim;

How much "free" play did you have in your clutch pedal? If you push the pedal down with your hand how far does it move before it feels a lot harder to push?

[Jim Yergin]

Don,

I have plenty of free play, more than what the factory manual calls for. The clutch would engage very close to the floorboard (back when it would engage) and would not release until way down towards the floor.

Jim Yergin

[Don Coatney]

Jim;

Have you dropped the clutch inspection cover to have a look yet?

[Jim Yergin]

Jim;

Have you dropped the clutch inspection cover to have a look yet?

Not yet. Maybe this weekend.

Jim Yergin

[Norm's Coupe]

Don,

I have plenty of free play, more than what the factory manual calls for. The clutch would engage very close to the floorboard (back when it would engage) and would not release until way down towards the floor.

Jim Yergin

Don't quite understand what you are saying, except that the clutch engages just above the floorboard. Based on that almost the entire length of the pedal shaft is free play. For a properly adjusted clutch you should only have about 1/2 to 1" free play in the pedal from the top of the pedal (all the way out), before it starts to engage. If yours went to the floor or close to it before engaging, that would burn the clutch up in no time.

[Tom Skinner]

Jim,

I am also sorry to hear about your Clutch failure.

The Free Play Don C. talks about is generally at least an inch, at the

top of the Pedal. Maybe your Linkage was knocked out of whack when

you did your Clutch job and needed adjusting so your Pedal Travel was

correct. On your repair be sure to get a guy to check your adjustments against what you think is correct. I had a buddy up from Florida (Dell) test drive mine after I did a Clutch job and he said to adjust it out another

1/8" , after I did that it ran perfect. He drove it and Clutched it at around

25-30mph to feel for the correct free play. Make sure you have a bud to test drive it and adjust it with you.

Preferably one that has done many Clutch jobs.

Tom

[Jim Yergin]

Norm and Tom, thank you for your postings. I certainly will make sure the free play is correct. Norm, maybe I am missing something but how could too much free play cause a clutch to burn out so quickly? In my mind, too much free play might prevent the clutch from fully releasing (certainly causing excessive wear when stepping on the clutch pedal) but then the gears would clash when shifting. Once your foot was off the pedal it would be fully engaged and there would not be excessive wear. Wouldn't it be the lack of free play that would more likely cause it to burn out so quickly by leaving the clutch less than fully engaged at all times except when shifting? If anything, my clutch had too much free play but there was no problem shifting to indicate that it was only partially releasing. I guess I will find out when I take it apart.

Does anyone else agree with Moose on the 10" clutch and the 230 motor?

Thanks.

Jim Yergin

[Young Ed]

Jim not sure about the 10" part but which brand do you have? There are 2 listed in the 46-54 parts book. I know all the cars I've parted out with Dad he throws the one brand/style away and keeps all the others. I believe auburn is the one he chucks and borg&beck is the good one.

[Don Coatney]

Norm, maybe I am missing something but how could too much free play cause a clutch to burn out so quickly? In my mind, too much free play might prevent the clutch from fully releasing (certainly causing excessive wear when stepping on the clutch pedal) but then the gears would clash when shifting. Once your foot was off the pedal it would be fully engaged and there would not be excessive wear. Wouldn't it be the lack of free play that would more likely cause it to burn out so quickly by leaving the clutch less than fully engaged at all times except when shifting?

Jim;

You are 100% correct. I have no idea what Norm is talking about:confused:

[moose]

I think that you will be more satisfied with a ten inch clutch for a couple of reasons--

With the OD it will put more stress on everything forward of the driveshaft. The clutch being the spot where power transfer takes place. And with more surface area(and more distance/torque arm from the center of the flywheel) it can provide better power/torque transfer.

More surface area will give you longer life on your clutch. I've had a 10" in my '55 for 6+ years, 30,000 miles and I can see virtually no wear on it. I'm hard on it sometimes too.

Besides, bigger is better right?

[James_Douglas]

Hi Jim,

Sorry to hear about your trouble. NOS and NORS clutch disks (and facings) as well as NOS/NORS pressure plates come up on ebay from time to time.

There is an old timer here in the middle of downtown San Francisco that runs a clutch rebuilding shop. I don't think he will be around for but a hand full of years. I got a bunch of NOS clutch material and had him do two clutches for me. One is in the car and the other is packed for the future.

MANY of the rebuilt clutch disks like the one I got from NW Trans have rivets in at an angle thus limiting the life of the disk---be wary.

If you find a good core and want to send it out, I will act as middle man for you and have the old timer rebuild your disk for you. When he did mine, he let me put a few rivets in to see how the machine "feels".

On my car with the fluid coupling it has a smaller clutch and a nothing flywheel as the fluid coupling does all the work. When you take off you don't slip the clutch out, you just dump it as the fluid coupling deals with all the torque/thrust issues. The clutches on a fluid coupling car last a long time.

*****************

Under the heading of misery loves company...

I started the installation on Thursday of my "re-manufactured" 3-speed with overdrive. The one with all NOS gears and syncros.

We got the thing into place and was sucking the bolts home to pull it in the last 3/4". When it got a little hard. The original Asche trans and the loaner trans both took the same treatment, but less effort, to bottom out. This time however, a large shutter and then the realization that the case cracked along the ear and up 3" along the case.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!%$#$$%^%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, after two days of analysis it appears that the NOS input shaft is 0.001 larger than the old one at both the inner bearing area and the out bearing area (Fluid drive bearings). Also the splines for the clutch are 0.002 larger. I stuck my spare clutch on the NOS shaft and it fits. So, it is the hardened input shaft!

I tore the transmission apart that I have spent months on and pulled the input shaft and took it in my hand and went under the car and it would not go in. I took the original used one and it does fit. I then measured the original M6 semi-auto and the shaft size is the same as the old std. input shaft. So it is not doubt that the NOS input shaft is the problem.

So now I have to tear apart both transmissions and swap the cases and check all the end-plays all over again. Not to mention pressing the bearings around on the input shafts.

For those who would ask why I just don't put the loaner trans back in...when I pulled it apart the cluster had many broken gears and I doubt it would have lasted more than a few weeks or months.

*******************************

Let me know if there is anything I can do for you on the clutch.

Best, James

[Mark Haymond]

Aaah, James. Sorry to hear the heartbreaking news about the broken casing. Bummer.

[PatS....]

James, sad to hear of the broken casing after all that work...and such a minute difference, too

I certainly admire your tenacity and patience, though.

I know for sure the tranny would have done a pirouette off the Golden Gate and become a fish habitat were it mine!! Oh, the neighbors would have learned a few new words, too

I'm rootin' for ya to get the thing finished and in the car working correctly!

Pat

[Don Coatney]

So, it is the hardened input shaft!

James;

Did you have the NOS input shaft "hardened"? If so what was the hardening process?