Piston

[pflaming]

The top two rings of one piston are so 'dirty' I couldn't tell there were four. Trying to clean them or at least get them out. Does one have to but a set of six to get a set for one piston?

I'm back to the 'rusty piston' engine. Got the head clean now going to do a compression test on the five cylinders then decide if I am going to continue. Probably will. Can't resist the challenge even if I fail. The third photo is the head after I cleaned it. Maybe I ought to have it 'resurfaced' just as a precautionary measure. The two valves will be my biggest challege. They are free and work with the cam so that is encouraging.

Got a rusted tight manifold, cannot get it apart and the 'flipper' is rusted solid also. Some say the 'flipper' (sorry Don but I cannot remember the correct term, something related to heat damper I now recall"), some say that is not really all that necessary any way. Have both the piston and the heat riser/flipper soaking in pentrating oil at the present.

Any help would be appreciated.

PF

[Young Ed]

Its quite common for the bolts holding the 2 manifolds together to be stuck. 9 times out of 10 they break. Using a torch to heat the manifold helps but even that doesn't always get them. If you are lucky they break with enough sticking out to cut a screwdriver slot and use more heat. Once you get the 2 pieces apart then you can work on the heat riser.

Is that piston the one from the rusty hole? If so it looks pretty good. Cant comment on getting the rings off safely or if you can just buy one set of 4.

[pflaming]

Yes, the piston came out of that rusty cylinder. Going to take the piston to a mechanic friend to get the rings out. I think I may cut the heads off of the manifold then try to separate the two pieces, then heat and remove as possible. Going to be fun!

[Young Ed]

I've thought about trying that but have never done it. You would insure leaving something to use for leverage that way. Its too bad the little 6s dont use the same system as the big ones. Those 4 bolts go through on the 25" 6s.

[carl b51]

Glad to see you didn't giveup on the 230. The head looks ok but check it for level and the piston looks real good keep soaking it the rings will come out. Remember Don't giveup ! good luck . Carl

[pflaming]

It is not really clear but on manifold #1 pic you can see the bolts go all the way through. So I am going to cut off the heads then try to separate, then cut off again and drive the short bold out the other end, or at least that is what I am going to try to do!!!

So anyway tomorrow I will know more. I have some brake fluid, think I will put the piston top down into pure brake fluid for a couple of days and see what happens. On the farm in NEBR we used to soak things in Diesel Fluid, that would be less expensive than brake fluid, maybe try that first.

Had Turkey day today, 28 relatives at our house, went through a 28# turkey. Have a great weekend all.

PF

[Andydodge]

Try soaking the piston in lacquer thinner, mineral turpentine or methylated spirits........even petrol should work its way into the ring slots.......andyd

[Don Coatney]

Best way to clean ring lands is to use an inverted broken ring.

[grey beard]

My own experience with pistons is that even if they are clean, the top ring groove will be worn out sideways, which means that a new ring in an old piston will have too much side-to-side play - shouldn't be more than .002 thousandths of an inch. For this reason it usually pays to replace pistons in sets. Fortunately they are not expensive at Terrell Macjhine or VPW - both listed in the links section of this web site.

The greater concern that overrides everything is the condition of the cylinders in the engine block. If these are worn tapered - bigger at the top - you will need to have the block bored. There is no way around this if you want to have a viable engine when you are finished. To measure this you will need a bore gauge, or borrow or rent one. If there is more than .008 thou taper, rebuilding the engine assembly would be a waste of time, IMHO.

The difference between a sweet engine and a mess is respect for tolerances. This is the most difficult part of the trade to teach new students, and the most important. It's hard for non-mechanics to understand that the difference between a worn-out engine and a fresh one can be little more than the thickness of a piece of paper or two.

[pflaming]

#1. Pistons are good / bad based upon the wear of the ring land.

#2. Cylinders must have the same 'wear' / 'non-wear' from top to bottom so confirm a uniform measurement top to bottom.

I understand that a compression check can be made just by tuning the crank shaft. Question: does that have to be done with the starter to get a few revolutions or can that be done with a socket wrench. I am going to check the compression of the other five cylinders before I tear this motor down. So now I have my 'marching orders'. (Got lacquer thinner)

I would guess that pistons and piston rings come in sets ONLY! VPW = Vintage Power Wagons! They have very clear parts pages. Are their rubber motor mounts good? Seems their prices are fair also, is that a fair statement?

Frankie: Sorry about the Longhorns, you better return to the Huskers, they know how to kick field goals!

PF

[Don Coatney]

If you figure out how to do a compression check with the head removed let me know how you do it.

[pflaming]

Don, here in California we do most things with our heads OFF! That is the true mark of a Califonian:D (spelling is correct, since we got the Austrian for governor we now pronounce some things differently, a bit confusing at times to get the spanish/austrian/ San Francisco dialect correct, but the we are a 'progessive' people.

I did overlook that important item! Thank you for the page, I copied it, printed it, and now I am going to read it. Much oblidged.

[grey beard]

Mr. Coatney,

The only way you can check compression with the head off is a little like kisssing a duck without getting any feathers in your mouth - you've gotta be really quick . . . giess we'll have to use the starter instead of the socket set.

Good Luck. Let us know how it goes.

[Don Coatney]

Geez Dave;

I never tried kissing a duck:D What do the feathers taste like:confused:

[buds truck]

oh, you guys quack me up!!!!!

[Don Coatney]

oh, you guys quack me up!!!!!

Sounds like you need a good goose:p

[pflaming]

I think I will put the head on before I try kissing up to a duck. Got the piston submerged in Lacquer thinner, but the manifolds are so rusted shut the bolts just twist off and after cutting off the heads, I could NOT force the two pieces apart. Guess I will be looking for another manifold.

[Frank Elder]

Should look at the stats.,Longhorns have a slightly better chance at the national championship than the huskers!

[pflaming]

Frankie, the stats say we are both improving, mayber the Huskers a bit faster!

Found a container lid a bit larger than the piston, put the piston in laquer thinner, rings down for 24 hours, then clamped it down and took a small punch to the rings. They are out! Came out a piece at a time. Piston is now in the bath again. Tomorrow to a machine shop for an inspection. Point is: laquer thinner works.

Any one have four rings in a drawer somewhere? Hate to buy a complete set. Next! hone the cylinder and do a caliper test.

PF

[pflaming]

Pistons are out! Got 'em placed so they go back in the cylinder they came out of. Piston #3 had a broken top ring. A mechanic friend came over honed and 'mic'd' the cylinder walls and they are ok. So new rings go in. By chance I poured lacquer thinner in the cylinders of the engine I pulled out of the truck and six hours later all turned free! Honed the cylinders and they are as good as the engine I am working on. Now I have two "sort-of" engine blocks.

Valves are next. My friend will help me re-install valves, pistons and rings and torque the head and rod bolts, so that gives me the confidence to take a few risks. Never torn an engine apart before. Fun!!!. Do need a carb. . .

PF

[carl b51]

Paul, sounds like everything is coming up roses. keep after it. Carl

[pflaming]

Carl, after removing the pistons I cleaned the cylinders. Look good! mic'ed good as well. Crank, who knows.

Poured some lacquer thinner in the old block that came with the truck, several hours later they turned free and the cylinder walls look as good as the 'rebuilt' block. This could get interesting or confusing. Will pull the pan off of the old block next and compare. May have two blocks!

[Don Coatney]

How do you know what size piston rings you need? Do you know how to "fit" the rings to the cylinder by checking and adjusting end gap?

[pflaming]

Don, at this point I don't know what size rings I need nor how to fit the rings which is why I am consulting with a mechanic friend. Will remove the main bearings next might as well do it 'right the first time' as Frankie suggested. It is really an interesting project, I am learning a great deal.

Gonna have a nice fishing truck when I finish.

[pflaming]

Pulled the pan, bottom is as clean as the 'rebuilt' engine I've been tinkering with. Numbers are: T306 (star) 6 II 21 (star); 9 27 51 (date) and 1326229-36. Frank, NO MALTESE Ax head, shucks!

This engine truck was parked because they ran the engine hot. They removed the head, maybe they warped it, so abandonded the truck. I am going to do a little gamble. I am taking the (rusty) head from the 'rebuilt' engine in this afternoon and have it checked out. Then I am going to put that head on this engine, torque it down and do a compression test. The cylinder walls in this engine are smoother than the other and when I put a steel brush to the top of the pistons they were not even pitted. They look better than the others.

Additonally, the pressure plate is nice and shiny, the springs are still bright red, all is attached, so I am going to take a shot of Tennessee Whisky, do a toast to Don and others and see what the compression is. If it is anywhere close to good, I am going to try and start this engine and go with 'as is'.

I can use this engine 'around town' and still have the other for a complete rebuild later. I think the manifold is fixable also, so now I am down to carb and some spark plug wires? This is more fun than the "Mustang Ranch" in Nevada! "Never got there, actually"

Chow:)