timkingsbury

I will start this Blog entry off with a cut and paste from an entry I recently posted on the forum. The preamble: I am not a fan of the non-mopar t5 transmission conversion. A great deal of those transmissions have gear splits that were meant for low horsepower, low torque engines and they just do not match up well to a flathead mopar. The are also in my opinion, a great deal of work to make the conversion. There are many models of the T5 transmission, with several having very little overdrive to them. As some have pointed out, when I posted a chart showing a great deal of the T5 transmissions, in at least one case a member who is a huge t5 supporter, editted his post as his transmission was not what he thought it was. That may should like a shot, it isn't meant to be, but what it is really is an illustration that a lot of guys have ventured into the t5 project without realizing what they are in for or what they even have. I do completely understand why so many having went though the conversion process, claim to be happy. They may indeed be, with all the work behind them and in some cases guys are not about to admit that they wished they have never went that route. At least one of those recently posted on the blog here, who was beyond frustrated with the project effort level and the results. Now having said that, there are some t5 with better splits and more overdrive than others, but given the work effort, the cost and the end product it still wouldn't be my first choice. The goal: I wont go into the ramble on why I still prefer the Mopar Overdrive solution, and why for me the 1952-56 R10G Borg Warner overdrive gives you in essence a 6 speed transmission, and concentrate on the pursuit of many. That being a easier to find Overdrive transmission that provides you with a decent level over overdrive, with a decent gear split and for many, the desire to have a floor shift in their car. There is also those with earlier (pre-1939) Mopar's that had a floor shift transmission and would like to keep that original cab look, but want an overdrive and cant find one of the floor shift overdrives from the 30's that came from Chrysler/Desoto. The Solution: A 1975 - 1987 Aluminum A833 4 Speed Transmission with overdrive. Yes, the A833 "bullet proof" transmission is the in essence the same transmission as the "cast iron" version of the 60's that went behind the 426 Hemi. Those transmissions tend to be very pricy and 4th is direct drive 1:1 so since were looking for Overdrive, the older cast iron A833 doesn't fit the bill. Although the 1975- 1987 Aluminum A833 certainly does! The details: Lets start with for the earlier Plymouth we have to deal with the "X" frame so the A833 becomes a great candidate for this application. I would use the Aluminum cased a833's 4 speed with overdrive which started part way into 1975 and went thru until mid 1987. Here is the gear splits: 1st: 3.09:1, 2nd: 1.67:1 3rd: 1:1 4th: 0.73:1 (Trucks used a 0.71:1 fourth) The overdrive configuration with a 23-spline input appeared in these vehicles: o 1975 to 1979 Valiant, Duster, Dart, Scamp, Swinger, Volare, Aspen (3.09:1 ratio first gear) o 1975 to 1987 Dodge light-duty pickups and Dodge and Plymouth Vans (3.09:1 ratio first gear) o 1977 to 1979 Diplomat and LeBaron (3.09:1 ratio first gear) The "Coles note" version of what you will need to do and I will mix in the details concerning the "X-Frame" which only becomes relevant in the models from the 1930's. You will be using the original bell housing, not the one that came from the vehicle that had your donor A833 4 speed and yes ones like the bell housing in the pickups are large and might leave you the impression your on the wrong track. You will need and Adapter plate and screws to mount the transmission up to you stock bell housing. You do not need to make modifications to your bell housing * The Adapter plate kits (Plate and screws) are available from AoK. We do not have A833 transmissions for sale You will need to change your clutch to fine spline and you will need to make an adjustment to the connection of the A833 transmission to the drive shaft. You can change the yoke on your drive shaft so it will connect up to the new transmission or in many cases this may be the opportunity to put in a modern rear end which will allow you to use a modern driveshaft with the A833 and the new rear end. Will talk about that more in a second. ** Note: Sept 2015 we sold the last Adapter plate and our Supplier cranks up the price to the point that we are looking for another supplier. Will update this blog entry when we have more details. Nov 2105 - as covered below, we have got a new supplier and have the adapters and bolts (as a kit) for $125 USD plus shipping. That is the price for the next 25 at least and is priced really based on what the cost of the aluminum stock price is. You do not need to change your pilot bushing as it is the same as original. On 1937 – 39 Plymouth cars (with the X-Frame), you can cut bottom of x frame loop off - (half off) to get the transmission in place. Some think it is fine to leave it with the piece of X-Frame taken out, although it is easily to get it back in place so that would be my preference. The the last one I saw done, they made a bracket to put the x frame loop and then fasten the half of the X-Frame back in. Depending on which A833 transmission you get, you may have to make a minor modification of the bearing retainer. It is the round plate that has 4 bolts holding it on to the tranny.. A couple of the A833's have a longer housing and you need to unbolt it and cut some of the housing off. About an 1” 1/8”, For the 1937 we recently had a hand in, he used a 1966 dodge cornet rt clutch (10 ½”) and pressure plate that he bought from napa (called a clutch pack), however there are lots of great and inexpensive options there. You can change the yoke on the drive shaft to hook up to the A833 or change the rear end. For the 1937 Plymouth project I just mentioned, he put in a 1963-64 Chrysler New York rear end and it fit in perfect. It also had 3” x11” brakes and positraction and a 3:55 rear end ratio which with the a833 gives you 2.59 results as well gave you the emergency brake on the rear axle since you loose the emergency brake drum when you swap out your original transmission. Here is a handy chart on mopar rear ends that may come in handy depending on your application For the 1937 Plymouth which already had a floor shift, the shifter had to be modified slightly so it came up in the original position. Basically the shifter was modified to move it to the right (passenger side) and then up towards the firewall slightly ,to have it come up the original shifter position. Despite the two bends it shifts perfectly. If you are putting the A833 in an early pickup the shifter had to be modified to go towards the passanger 3/4" and then towards the firewall 1 1/2 and it shifts perfectly. In the pickup if your interested, when the snow leaves (about july.. lol) I have to go have a better look at the rear end. I cant remember if the drive shaft was modified to put the modern yoke or if the rear end was changed. I do know the A833 came right out of my Dad's 1982 Dodge pickup. The net in either gives you a floor shift transmission with decent overdrive ratio (0.73:1 or on the Trucks 0.71:1) and decent gear splits! For cars from the 1940s and 50's you don't have to deal with the "x-frame" so the project is even simpler. In terms of the shifter position coming through the floor, you will have a slightly better starting point than other modern floor shift transmissions, and keep in mind you can modify the shift to bend it towards the passenger if you like or towards the firewall. Personally in a 1948 Plymouth business coupe, we made no modification left (towards the passenger side) but bent it forward towards the firewall a bit just because for the driver (6 foot 2 inches) that is just where it felt the best. The point being you have a fair amount of flexibility in where you want the shifter to come up through the floor and then bend it to work best for you. For the 1946-48,Plymouth it seem the US cars may have a slightly different back mount with a cross over member being notched for the standard 3 speed. To then accommodate the lower a833 transmission, I am told you have to notch that cross over frame piece slightly to use the adapter and A833 transmission. For the 1948 Canadian Plymouth we did not have that issue. * Jan 2016 - We have been able to pull stock transmission out of 1946-48, 1949, and 1950 Plymouths made in USA and every one would require modification of the cross member as the A833 4 speed being deeper than the stock transmission is going to hit the cross member.. Also remember that when you swap out your original transmission and move to any modern transmission, you have to consider what your doing for an emergency brake. As I covered above, the change of the rear end to a more modern rear end may solve that problem for you. There other options, 1 such option would be something like - E-Stopp Electric Emergency Brake with Remote Push Button http://www.estopp.com/ Here is the A833 illustration right from Dodge/Chrysler and then a view angles of a rebuilt tranny. ** Dec 22 2015 - Just to be clear, the A833 adapter plate is for Mopar 833 Aluminum 4 speeds for use in Mopar cars, and was not designed for use with the - 1981 -1986 Chevy/GM Truck Overdrive which I believe is a 833/RPO MY6. We were contacted in May by a customer and in the conversation it became apparent he was considering using a GM version of the transmission and he was told there appears to be a great deal of difference between it and the Mopar version of the A833. It appears he has been able to make modifications and get it to work and we will attempt to get a report from him, but up until now we have had zero experience trying to use A833 chevy truck transmissions with this adapter. That doesn't mean that this conversion cant be successful, but it does mean we don't have experience in doing this. There also appears to be interest in an adapter plate for the lighter truck bell housings, which as of now our adapter plate would be viable only for the 1955 and newer 1/2 tons using the column shift 3 speed and utilize the car style bell housing. The floor shift heavier 3 speed and lighter for speed (top bell housing below) and the heavier 4 speed in the 1 ton and lighter 2wd trucks with heavier 4 speeds that utilize the offset bell housing (bottom bell housing below) will not work with our current adapter plate and an a833 mopar 4 speed. Depending on demand we can make adapter plates for either. Let us know if you are interested. Feb 5 2016 - Well mission accomplished. We now have an adapter plate for the both heavy 3 speed floor shift and light 4 speed bell housings and heavier 4 speed bell housings. Bellow is the truck adapter which works for both, then a picture of it with the car and light 3 speed column shift for tucks, and then a picture of the two truck bell housings that the new adapter plate works with. Price is going to be $135 & shipping for the kit. The kit will be the adapter plate and 4 bolts required to mount the adapter plate to the truck bell housing. Bottom line: In the continental United States car adapter plates are $140 shipped and truck adapter platers are $150 shipped. Outside of that area cars are $125 + shipping and trucks are $135 + shipping.

This one is the "big brother" to out 1953 Fargo plow truck and it is a 1953 Dodge which has its own cute story. It was shipped to Wellington Motors in Guelph Ontario, which was owned by the one of my Grandfathers best friends, and today is owned by his son Ted Woods who was one of my Dad;s best friends. In any case it arrived a branded 1953 Fargo, having been ordered by Eramosa Township as a plow truck. It has a factory 265 and a full load.. 4 ton, dual intake, dual exhaust, 5 speed overdrive, 2 speed rear axle, dual fuel tanks and actually a pretty tiny box which does have a hydraulic dump, however what they did was mount or fasten in four large cement block as counter weights.. The truck was delivered and was rejected by the Reeve or Eramosa Township. They had ordered a Dodge not a Fargo.. Lol.. Ted Woods (the son of the dealership) phoned my Dad who called his father in law, my grandfather and before you know it the fargo underwent a rebranding from Fargo to Dodge at Wellington motors. I have the original letter from the Township rejecting it, and somehow Dad, and no I have all of the NOS pieces that came off it with the Fargo branding. With the dash badging with serial number on it, its cool to have dual badging.The truck which ran from feb 1953 until spring of 1973 came out of production as the municipality couldn't insure anything over 20 years old. It was sold to Muskoka Township which is in northern Ontario, and they ran it as a backup plow truck until 1983. They truck went up for tender and the municipality contacted Wellington Motors as some of the original paper work was still in the glovebox under the seat. The Fargo/Truck network kicked in, and Dad bought the Fodge (aka Fargo than became a Dodge) as a non-runner and we went up with a tilt and load, to tow it home. Dad puddled with it for about and hour and fired it up and drove it across the parking lot to load it up. The pictures below are how it looked when it arrived.. Just a tad tough.. It underwent a paint job from the red ordered by Eramosa township to the Green of Muskoka and according to the maintenance log book it was "touched up" the year before it was sold.. Lol..touched up.. lol the sprayed it right over the licence plate.. It is one of those things hanging out at the Kingsbury Farm that should be restored some day although it is a tad on the rough side.

What year is your 2 1/2 ton ? The last ones we have that say OD on the end are early 1952 production. So the only ones I have ever seen were 1951 or 1952 production units. Come 1953 they were no longer marked or at least none that we have and I hate to admit just how many we happen to have.

In the 1953 the overdrive on the 5 speed is not marked on the end of the transmission. It is on our 1952, but isn't on our 1953, 1954 or 1955.. I have 2 1953's and 1 as a 5 speed with 5th being direct drive, and in that one 5th gear is over and down, and on the other which is also a 5 speed, 5th is over and up and it is overdrive. The overdrive truck was a municipal plow truck and came with the 265 ci, dual intake and exhaust and the other was a dump truck, it came with a 5 speed and a 2 speed rear axle but also the 265 and dual intake and exhaust. As others have already pointed out, the start of this thread had carbs on the equalizer tube and was missing the intake... and I saw another one with the equalizer tube off of it and carbs right on the intake. In 1952 the stock car guys in several states and in Ontario Canada were allowed to use that dual intake and exhaust because it was seen as a factory parts and lots of them pulled off the equalizer or balancing tube. Actually they went further than that and jetted the front carb differently than the back. In any case, I will attach a picture from the engineering manual with the part breakdown of the dual carb intake and exhaust and a few pictures of a complete original setup restored. I will say from the intake down complete. Tim

I hear you.. it is like my place.. As you know it doesn't matter Dodge or Fargo in terms of truck stuff.. Chrysler flipped to 12 volt in 1953 up here.. but the trucks not till 1955. But if it maybe came out of an earlier one then it could easy be 6 volts.. Its happened to me I can tell you.. I thought I was using stuff out of a 1957 powerwagon at one point and it turned out to be pre-1955.. There is a way of telling which is which, but it would require some investigation as I don't know. My "is this 12 volt or 6 volt" source for my stuff is no longer with us.. You have a resistor coming I think you said right ?

If it is a 6 volt gauge, disconnect it asap. It will burn it out without the resistor in line. The 1955 fargo should have been 12 volts though. That is the start of 12 volts for the Canadian based pickup Dodge/Fargo. My 1954 is 6 volt, and my 1955 is 12 volt. But if it was a 6 volt system you definitely don't want to run it on 12 volts.. It may give you the illusion it is working, just not quite reading correctly, and then it will cease to function. It doesn't care about the polarity, but it does the voltage increase.

I must say I missed this thread the 1st time around and its sounds like Robert opted for a jeep 4 speed if I am reading between the lines correctly. I do know if I was putting a modern transmission into a1937-39 Plymouth car which is going to have the "X" frame to deal with or your 1937 Plymouth pickup which I believe is the same as a 1937 Fargo pickup.. I would be using an Aluminum cased a833's 4 speed with overdrive which started part way into 1975 thru mid 1987. Here is the gear splits Gear splits 1st: 3.09:1, 2nd: 1.67:1 3rd: 1:1 4th: 0.73:1 (Trucks used a 0.71:1 fourth) The overdrive configuration with a 23-spline input appeared in these vehicles: o 1975 to 1979 Valiant, Duster, Dart, Scamp, Swinger, Volare, Aspen (3.09:1 ratio first gear) o 1975 to 1987 Dodge light-duty pickups and Dodge and Plymouth Vans (3.09:1 ratio first gear) o 1977 to 1979 Diplomat and LeBaron (3.09:1 ratio first gear) The "coles note" version of what you will need to do. You will need and Adapter plate and screws - which roughly cost $100 You need to change the clutch to fine spline, the you need to Change the yoke on the back of the tranny on your drive shaft or put in a modern rear end. The pilot bushing is the same as original. On 1937 – 39 Plymouth car, you cut bottom of x frame loop off - (half off) to get the transmission in and then the last one I saw done, they made a bracket to put the x frame loop back in. You may have to make a minor modification of the bearing retainer, it is round plate that has 4 or 5 bolts holding it on to the tranny.. A couple of the A833's have a longer housing and you need to unbolt it and cut some of the housing off. About an 1” 1/8”, The 1937 recently done he used a 1966 dodge cornet rt clutch (10 ½”) and pressure plate. that he bought from napa (called a clutch pack) . You can change the yoke on the drive shaft to hook up to the A833 or change the rear end. For example on the 1937 Plymouth car, he put in a 1963- 64 Chrysler New York rear end and it fit in perfect. It has 3” x11” brakes and posi - 3:55 with the a833 = 2.59 is the result. The Shifter was modified slightly so it came up in the original position. Basically the shifter was modified to move it to the right (passenger side) and then up towards the firewall slightly to come up the original shifter position in the 1937 Plymouth. In the pickup I know in a 1937 Plymouth the shifter had to be modified to go towards the passanger 3/4" and then towards the firewall 1 1/2" and it shift perfectly. In the pickup if your interested, when the snow leaves (about july.. lol) I have to go have a better look at the rear end. I cant remember if the drive shaft was modified to put the modern yoke or if the rear end was changed. I do know the A833 came right out of my Dad's 1982 Dodge pickup The net in either gives you a floor shift transmission with decent overdrive ratio (0.73:1 or on the Trucks 0.71:1) and decent gear splits.. If I can be of assistance, drop me a note. Happy to help and I do not sell A833 transmissions nor do I know anyone who does at the moment.. lol !

unfortunately no it isn't. Your r10g has to go in, tranny/overdrive together. your existing tranny comes out and no part will be used in the change over. You will need the relay, kickdown switch, and overdrive cable. It will require some modification of the x-frame for you to put it in. If you need the wiring diagram, I can send you that no problem. If you would like to talk to someone who has done this, let me know. Happy to help out. tim

April 22 - 26 in Carlisle PA - Spring Carlisle http://www.carlisleevents.com/carlisle-events/carlisle-spring-swap-meet-corral-auction/default.aspx The grand-daddy of all mopar shows.. July 10th - 12 in Carlisle PA - Known as Chrysler Carlisle by the old timers, or All Chrysler Nationals Keep scrolling down page from the link below.. http://www.carlisleevents.com/carlisle-events/carlisle-chrysler-nationals/default.aspx Any luck, we should be at both.. come by to say hi, shoot the breeze, have a cold beer from Canada, or heck kick dirt at me if you like... lol..

Lol.. Love it.. I am sure you have seen the CanAm reverse trike.. and Just a bit of cool background to check out.. 1) the first sticking a big mopar in a motorcycle. I did a series on my blog http://p15-d24.com/blog/17/entry-65-as-promised-the-story-of-the-worlds-fastest-flathead…-motorcycle-part-1/ http://p15-d24.com/blog/17/entry-66-as-promised-the-story-of-the-worlds-fastest-flathead…-motorcycle-part-2/ http://p15-d24.com/blog/17/entry-67-as-promised-the-story-of-the-worlds-fastest-flathead…-motorcycle-part-3/ 2) not that you will necessarily get any ideas, but this "wild ass" ride has a 4 cylinder automotive engine and is definitely an inspiration. http://customrodder.forumactif.org/t2345-road-dog-1965-william-wild-bill-gelbke 3) Next up, I will try and find some pictures.. A Spring Carlisle last year a Motorcycle shop made a large reverse trike. I am sure with the inspiration coming from the CanAm as he has made a number of traditional trikes. I spent a bunch of time talking with him as what became clear was the reverse trike was the way to go, but getting the front axle operating properly was the challenge. I am definitely interested in what your up to. Are you thinking on having the front wheels actually drive it ? The key for me for the reverse trike or a motorcycle using an automotive engine is the frame. My overall interest is a little more than a passing interest.. My grandfather had some involvement in the Plymouth Motorcycle, and starting with him, then my Dad, and no me have thought about doing an update from the Plymouth Motorcycle Concept.. aka The Chrysler Motorcycle. To the point that I have actually got the engine, which is as light as a flathead Chrysler can be. A modified bell housing, and auburn clutch and pressure plate and a modified and lightened 3 speed transmission. All together its over 100 pounds lighter than a stock setup.that being said, it is still heavy. Your concept will be without question lighter. What has slowed down my project is the frame... and I have thought of doing a version like the Plymouth motorcycle from the 30's, the reverse trike and even thought about a bike, but putting a side car on it.. So far the bike builders I have talked to had project estimates just about the size of the economy of some 3rd world countries.. Ok maybe a bit of an exaggeration. Defiantly interested in your plans.. Tim

Well in the 1939 r7 you get the best floor shift overdrive built for Mopar, until you get to the a833... I don't disagree with you guys. If he can find a 1939 overdrive its a super option. I don't know about you guys, but I haven't found them to be exactly easy to find. He may want to keep looking for both a 1939 r7 and a decent floor shift option for his r10. Now if someone has a 1939 overdrive that would obviously tip the scales. Oh and as an aside, I have a ton of great period 1939 Chrysler literature that I have scanned. If any one wants copies, drop me a note and I will happily email it to you. Tim

thanks for dropping by "oldasdirt" and "dj194950" It for guys like you that we/I do this and other members have been awesome in helping out. There is a lot more to come, just need the time to organize, put it together and get it up. With a 22 foot x 38 foot room which is the combo family library, picture area, and research spot, absolutely jammed, I have more stuff than time. But will try and work through the topics requested by the blog followers !

thanks for the mention.. here is the link to the blog http://p15-d24.com/blog/17-keeping-up-with-the-aok-boys/ and here is the thread specifically to the overdrives and I love having any information guys may have. I have on the drawing board to do a column to floor shift conversion as well as putting older overdrives into newer cars and newer overdrives in older cars ! Lets say that is a work in progress ! http://p15-d24.com/blog/17/entry-88-the-rough-field-spotters-guide-for-mopar-overdrives/

That thread they are more talking, speculating and wondering.. On Hamb.. there are 100+ threads which touch on the floor shift, lots discussing foxcraft and a couple of other makers. Other than foxcraft as I have tried to track down others, I have not found another one that works on the mopar Borg Warner transmission. They often turn out to be for fords, gms or others.. Doesn't mean that there are not others, and I love to collect info on others.. just haven't found any. Here is a link to the various threads on the topic. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/search/11373804/?q=plymouth+floor+shift&o=relevance&c[node]=5 and here is one of several in the list above, where guys have made their own shifter. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/anyone-build-there-own-floor-shifter.660223/#post-7329203

Howdy Magnus - Your in for a few challenges here. I think your 36 has an x-frame so you will have to do some modifications. Chrysler came out with the overdrive in 1934 and they changed in numerous times until up until 1938 when the last floor shift only or top loader was offered. In 1939 there was a floor shift and a column shift option which was operated by a cable. If you check out my blog you can see pictures. In 1940 it became column shift and as someone pointed out on the thread, the selector changed significantly. I know in the late 60's foxcraft made a line of shifters for converting from column to floor shift, and you had to modify them further to work on the r10 tranny you have that is 3 speed standard with overdrive. My Dad put one of the 1952 overdrives in a pickup that my Mom drove and she liked it left as a floor shift. I still have the shifter and we have looked at trying to replicate it, but it just isn't cost effective. Now maybe there were other makers I don't know, but what I do know is it is an active topic on many boards and forums and we get asked quite often. The Hamb forum thread shown earlier is actually 1 of about 10 threads on the topic and one of which was a guy who does make them. they have a lot of pieces and they are not cheap. I will attach a couple of pictures and I can mail you his contact info if you like. I don't know him, never dealt with him, only have seen the thread and he contacted me at one point for information. Cool Jim - was it a foxcraft or what was the manufacturer? I have heard JC Whitney before and I have contacted JC Whitney on a few occasions and they don't carry anything now, but sadly they have not been able to find who the maker was either. Any idea if it was foxcraft ? I know the floor shifter for the straight 3speed needs modifications to work on the overdrive but it is possible. I know guys who have watched for years on ebay for 1. Last one sold for $1075 and yes, I am talking just the foxcraft shifter (NOS) with the modification rods for the overdrive. I have 1, but its not a shift that is easy to replicate. there are too many pieces.

I see you already have a solution, however I thought I would provide the alternative. We converted my 1949 Plymouth to Electric wipers. Used a 1946-48 Chrysler setup and attached is the picture of the switch. I am sure you will find out or have already, that when doing the conversion the wiper arms and wiper bezels are slightly different as well. I will attach the picture of the bezel as well. Does the switch you found look similar to this one? It would not surprise me in the least that Studebaker used a similar setup.