A solution to gas guzzling SUV

[Frank Blackstone]

You can store it in the living room.

[Norm's Coupe]

In some cities around Wisconsin they are starting to sell an electric car. It's a Zenn. Downside is you can only drive it about 30 to 50 miles per charge, top speed is about 25 MPH. You plug into a 110 volt outlet to recharge it. http://www.ecarco.com/zen/zenn_LSV.htm

[Don Coatney]

Here are a couple more.

And my favorite the Messerschmidt. I at one time owned the one last

pictured.

[Jims50chrysler]

Electric cars as a solution to fossel fules shortage, energy crunch or in the name of being enviromentaly friendly puzzle me

1. In some cases fossel fules are used to create electricity.

2. Around here in the summer time the hydro company is asking us to turn our air conditioners down because they cannot keep up with the demand.

Oh ya and most of them are funny looking.

Jim

[TodFitch]

Electric cars as a solution to fossel fules shortage, energy crunch or in the name of being enviromentaly friendly puzzle me

1. In some cases fossel fules are used to create electricity.

In my area 52% of the electricity is from non-carbon sources. In the US a lot of electricity is generated with coal which the US has a large, if polluting, supply of. Most of those areas that don't use coal use natural gas. And so far the Canadians have been pretty obliging on supplying natural gas to us.

2. Around here in the summer time the hydro company is asking us to turn our air conditioners down because they cannot keep up with the demand.

The usage model that everyone talks about is to have the cars recharge at night. Currently there is a surplus of power generation at night and it might actually make the (non-solar) power generation infrastructure more efficiently utilized.

Oh ya and most of them are funny looking.

Jim

Agreed. I don't understand why changing the drive/energy storage system on a car seems to mandate odd looks.

[blueskies]

Electric cars as a solution to fossel fules shortage, energy crunch or in the name of being enviromentaly friendly puzzle me

One reason is because the energy efficiency of an electric car ties directly to the production of the electricity, not the car itself. As technological efficiencies in the production of electricity increase, the whole fleet of electric cars benefits at the same time. That, and there are many ways to produce electricity. You could put a PV array or windmill on your house to charge your car.

With fossil fuel burning cars, the efficiency of the car is fixed for the service life of the car, regardless of what technological improvements are happening in combustion engines. Sort of like driving a '79 LTD instead of a Prius. With an electric car, the car may be the LTD equivelent today, but the same car may become the Prius in a year or two if the production of electricity improves over time.

Pete

[Norm's Coupe]

Regardless of the fact that the car itself causes no pollution, they are still not cost effective in my opinion. Both in the cost to produce electricity and the vehicle itself.

The power companies are already overloaded and either need to build or are building new power plants. Our electric company is now building a new power plant that will be coal fired. A few are nuclear and many run off natural gas today. When they use natural gas to produce electricity, it cost us twice. Once because they use more natural gas, thus increasing the cost to the homeowner for their natural gas. Second, then the electric company raises their rates for electricity as the price of natural gas goes up. So, what we may save in gas for cars, we end up spending more for natural gas to produce and use more electricity. Its a vicious circle and the consumer ends up paying the higher bills.

As for the windmills. Well...........you need thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of those to produce enough electricity for everyone. Since nobody seems to like looking at them out their home windows, where ya going to put all those windmills.

Solar energy panels aren't cheap to install and maintain either.

As of today, those electric cars I posted aren't all that efficient. I would not pay $15,000 for a car that will only go 30 to 50 miles at 25 MPH before it needed recharging, then have to wait to use it again for 8 hours while its charging back up.

The same goes for the Hybrid cars they are building today. It would take a long time to see a savings in money on gas compared to the price you pay for the car. So.........as long as there are smaller cars out there that get 36 to 38 MPG like my wifes little Kia Spectra, they are much more cost effective to drive and own. They need to make a Hybrid, or electric car that goes anywhere on the highway at a reasonable price before I buy one. When I say reasonable price I mean anything at around the $15,000 mark or lower.

[TodFitch]

With fossil fuel burning cars, the efficiency of the car is fixed for the service life of the car, regardless of what technological improvements are happening in combustion engines. Sort of like driving a '79 LTD instead of a Prius. With an electric car, the car may be the LTD equivelent today, but the same car may become the Prius in a year or two if the production of electricity improves over time.

Pete

And even today it turns out that large fixed location gas/coal power plants have higher efficiency at turning fuel into useful energy than the small portable engine in a vehicle. The efficiency of a car engine is about 20% at best and in normal use is closer to 10%. The efficiency of a coal fired electrical power plant is 35% or more.

Allowing for line losses and losses in storing and retrieving the energy from batteries in the car the effective gas mileage of an electric car is much higher today than an gas powered car.

And as Pete noted, with improvements in power plant design and/or use of alternative electrical power sources the effective "fossil fuel efficiency" of an electric car will probably improve with time.

[Captain Neon]

Frank, I think that is the Freeway car if I am not mistaken. My dad was the plant engineer at the place where they built them, contract work. The guy who designed them was a hard guy to deal with and a bit of a primadonna. The plant owner and my dad both tried to show the designer ways that the car could have been built lighter, less expensively (labour and materials) and even safer, but he was unwilling to listen. If I'm not mistaken they run on gasoline and travel 55 mph, but get gas mileage that makes a Prius look like a gas guzzler. My dad has considered purchasing a few that he's seen for sale, but the price has never been right.

[Captain Neon]

In my area 52% of the electricity is from non-carbon sources. In the US a lot of electricity is generated with coal which the US has a large, if polluting, supply of. Most of those areas that don't use coal use natural gas. And so far the Canadians have been pretty obliging on supplying natural gas to us.

Ummm... aren't coal and natural gas fossil fuels? Maybe I'm missing something here.

[Norm's Coupe]

One of my points was the cost effectiveness and electric power supplies. We already have the electric power companies cutting off electricity to some industries during peak demand. Even doing that, some places still have brown outs during the summer on hot days. If we can't handle what demand we already have for electricity, how could we ever handle the demand if everyone in the country was plugging their cars in during those peak demands. We'd have total blackouts and nobody's car would get charged up, and our houses would be dark.

So..........that means building more power plants at millions of dollars, which the consumer pays for through higher bills. Thats in addition to the cost of operating that plant with whatever fuel they use to produce the electricity. To improve the technology of producing more electricity effectively you also have to include that cost, for both time and equipment. If you take all that into consideration, we'll never see any cost savings in our lifetime.

Just look at whats going on right now with producing alternative fuels for cars (reformulated gas). Since they use corn and soy for that, farmers are planting more to sell to the producers, thus planting less for food. Thats caused the prices of soy, corn and rice to skyrocket that we eat. Some farmers have cut back on planting wheat too so they can plant more corn, soy and rice for the fuel producers. This causes prices of other food items to go up like bakery goods, etc. It even ends up costing more for corn used as feed for animals such as cows, making the price of milk rise. Since we normally count food prices separate from fuel prices, it's a hidden cost for the reformulated fuel we burn in our vehicles. So again, we have to look at all the related cost of doing something, not just the price at the pump or electrical outlet.

[TodFitch]

Ummm... aren't coal and natural gas fossil fuels? Maybe I'm missing something here.

They are fossil fuels. But the topic is "A solution to gas guzzling SUV" and both coal and natural gas are available through the electrical grid to power your car whilst your SUV is relegated to using oil, mostly imported from politically unstable areas, with perhaps a little dilution with ethanol. And most of the ethanol in this country comes from inefficient processes that are mostly politically inspired pork.

So coal (all domestic) and natural gas (much of it from North America) are alternatives to oil as far as providing energy. Now if you are worried about global climate change due to green house gases the equation changes and those are not as attractive as "renewable" or "sustainable" energy sources.

[TodFitch]

One of my points was the cost effectiveness and electric power supplies. We already have the electric power companies cutting off electricity to some industries during peak demand. Even doing that' date=' some places still have brown outs during the summer on hot days. If we can't handle what demand we already have for electricity, how could we ever handle the demand if everyone in the country was plugging their cars in during those peak demands. We'd have total blackouts and nobody's car would get charged up, and our houses would be dark.

[/quote']

Peak demand is almost always in the afternoon and is driven by business usage and air conditioner loads.

If electric cars are plugged in at night then they would not affect the peak usage and would there would not be a need for a significant number of new power plants to be built. And enforcing that would be easy with current technology: Require time of day electrical metering. If it cost you twice as much to plug in and recharge your car in the afternoon as it did at night, most people would plug it in at night.

[Norm's Coupe]

Peak demand is almost always in the afternoon and is driven by business usage and air conditioner loads.

If electric cars are plugged in at night then they would not affect the peak usage and would there would not be a need for a significant number of new power plants to be built. And enforcing that would be easy with current technology: Require time of day electrical metering. If it cost you twice as much to plug in and recharge your car in the afternoon as it did at night, most people would plug it in at night.

Well Tod.........don't know about where you live. However, around here on an extremely hot day you will see lights start to flicker (and even dim at times) between about 3:30 PM and up to around 6 PM as people get home and crank up the A/C's. At such times my battery backup on the computer will also be sounding the alarm almost constantly. So........if you add millions of electric cars being plugged in at the same time, it will be time to dig out the candles.

[PatS....]

"And so far the Canadians have been pretty obliging on supplying natural gas to us."

US gov't said yesterday that it wouldn't allow imports of oil from the tar sands...second in reserves only to Saudi-Arabi...because it requires too much water to separate it from the sand.

I just laughed.

Talk about shootin themsleves in the foot!

The technolgy for separation is changing and evolving daily.

[Norm's Coupe]

"And so far the Canadians have been pretty obliging on supplying natural gas to us."

US gov't said yesterday that it wouldn't allow imports of oil from the tar sands...second in reserves only to Saudi-Arabi...because it requires too much water to separate it from the sand.

I just laughed.

Talk about shootin themsleves in the foot!

The technolgy for separation is changing and evolving daily.

Pat,

If there's one thing our politicians are exceptional at, it's shooting their self in the foot. I read the same thing you did.

[TodFitch]

Well Tod.........don't know about where you live. However' date=' around here on an extremely hot day you will see lights start to flicker (and even dim at times) between about 3:30 PM and up to around 6 PM as people get home and crank up the A/C's. At such times my battery backup on the computer will also be sounding the alarm almost constantly. So........if you add millions of electric cars being plugged in at the same time, it will be time to dig out the candles.[/quote']

Set your time of day pricing on electricity to change when the demand drops, guessing that might be 9 or 10 PM, and those cars would be plugged in later rather than sooner.

By the way, the local electrical company here is pushing for plug-in hybrids that will work both ways. That is they would be able to supply power to the grid when parked in your garage when the grid needs more power. Like during your 3:30 to 6:00 PM load period. So the batteries in your car would be helping you to run your AC during that time. Then the car would be recharged later at night when the grid demand drops. I guess you could think of the car as a big self mobile UPS.

I am not sure how cost effective that would be from the system wide point of view. But if the power company could get you to fund the cost of energy storage and load leveling for them they would be happy.

[PatS....]

Pat' date='

If there's one thing our politicians are exceptional at, it's shooting their self in the foot. I read the same thing you did.[/quote']

Norm, ours excel at stupidity too

Seems politicians lack the common sense gene:rolleyes:

[Jims50chrysler]

Wow all that from 3 little observations.

I also noticed....as I always do when the conversation turns to electric cars that there has been no discussion about hazmat teams at every accident scene and proper disposal of this stuff when it is done....lets face it there is special consideration given to the disposal of home computers and stuff like that.

Norms coupe Good to see someone chimed in with some words about alternate fuel ...I know a guy very close to me that makes his own..... fuel and I have paid very close attention to his procedure.

he makes 5 gal of....we'll call it mash for lack of a better word.

stands in front of his distillation device for around 6 hours and then stores his product in 3-40 oz liquer bottles seems like alot of work and energy to produce 120 oz of...fuel I am sure there is people on this forum that know what I am talking about. too bad it is against the law to drink it because there would be a cost savings there.

As much as I agree that the days of fossil fuel are numbered I do not think that, as some of you have pretty much said there is a suitable replacement yet and I am glad I can choose to not be the "guinea pig" paying the price for an inferior car while they are still developing the technology. (unlike computers)

OOPs I am Hijacking another thread Sorry Frank.

Jim

[kevinanderson]

I can't understand why Tyson Industries can produce diesel from poultry by-products to power some of their truck fleet and why cant this tech. be used to create more fuel from carbon based product and refine it down?

[crosleykook]

I love the idea of having small cars for short trips and such... but having taken a 700 mile trip in a car with about half the mass of a vw beetle and I wouldn't wish it on anyone who wasn't excited about the challenge. But for short hops there is nothing cooler than microcars.

this is one of the best things I've ever seen about small cars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN0LQJLabqA&feature=related

[Captain Neon]

Well Tod.........don't know about where you live. However' date=' around here on an extremely hot day you will see lights start to flicker (and even dim at times) between about 3:30 PM and up to around 6 PM as people get home and crank up the A/C's. At such times my battery backup on the computer will also be sounding the alarm almost constantly. So........if you add millions of electric cars being plugged in at the same time, it will be time to dig out the candles.[/quote']

Not every one works day shift, and I thank God for that. The price of goods and services would skyrocket. Those of us that go to work at 1:00 PM will plug in our cars at work upon arrival so we have the juice to get ourselves home at 10:00 PM. I agree w/ Norm!

Yes, the price of food is going up because of the ethanol industry.

[Dennis Hemingway]

Yes, the price of food is going up because of the ethanol industry.

So is the price of BEER!!!!

Dennis:(

[Captain Neon]

I can't understand why Tyson Industries can produce diesel from poultry by-products to power some of their truck fleet and why cant this tech. be used to create more fuel from carbon based product and refine it down?

Actually it was ConAgra, and it was a boondoggle. ConAgra considered building such a plant near Longmont CO. When only a few gallons of biodiesel were actually made in Carthage MO, they scrapped the program when the government subsidy ran out. It's Jonathan Swift all over again.

Tyson may run their fleet on biodiesel, but it didn't come from chicken or turkey guts. It's more cost effective to turn that stuff into pet food than to try and turn it into biodiesel.

[norrism1]

Not trying to be too far OT but I would like my Desktop PC and Monitor to run off a 9 volt battery. Then it would recharge on the night rate.