51 chrysler Windsor deluxe brakes?

[lucky 69]

Hello all, I have a 51 chrysler Windsor deluxe. I have put disk brake conversion on front. My question a good way to mount a dual bowl master cylinder on these? the clutch pedal assembly uses the master cylinder as part of it. I've seen some drill threw the original master cylinder and use it as a pass threw. I called eci brakes, I think that was the name. They have a bracket the will mount in original spot and work. But it was almost 500.00 when all said and done,bracket, master,residential valves. But just wondering if a little less expensive way to do this. So any ideas or pics would help. I know.wild wood makes remote kits too. If not probably just order the one from eci. Thanks for the Info. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by lucky 69
Changed question wording.

[Sniper]

I don't think a remote reservoir is what you are talking about.  A remote reservoir works with your stock master cylinder and only makes it easier to put brake fluid in the system.

[lucky 69]

Ya sorry about that I rewrote the question.. Thanks 

[Plymouthy Adams]

The fabrication of a bracket is not that hard to do but does involve at minimum some fabrication which require metal cutting tools, welder and a plus is a drill press.  If you do not have these or access to these buying a kit will likely be to your advantage.   When doing this, at least to my thinking and manner of upgrade, I would consider a true remote reservoir and never use a master with a built in reservoir as this always tacks on additional costs out of pocket for that relocation kit.   Your call as to what you wish to do,  buy the kit or roll your own.  Just did this task and cost was approx 85.00 with master, residuals, proportioning and aftermarket reservoir and EPDM rubber hose to connect the remote to the master.  Some metal falloff used I had lying about as was some copper sweat fitting.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Plymouthy Adams

[lucky 69]

Thanks plymouth Adam's, would you have any pics of what you did? Plus what and where did you get your parts from? I think I'm going to just make a bracket and see what I can do. Much better than spending a bunch of money.i have all the tools so that won't be a problem. Thanks for the info. 

[Sniper]

Been covered more than a few times here, use the search feature

 

https://p15-d24.com/topic/52144-dual-master-cylinder-for-stock-drum-brakes/

 

https://p15-d24.com/topic/13527-different-dual-res-master-cylinders/

 

https://p15-d24.com/topic/47186-eci-dual-reservoir-master-cylinder/

 

https://p15-d24.com/topic/28086-49-plymouth-want-dual-master-cylinder/

 

 

 

 

 

[lucky 69]

Sniper, thanks for the links. I did use search. But sence plymouth Adams has just done this for around 85.00 I'm very interested in there set up and parts. Old info and new info is all good.plus.the price difference. Thanks 

[Plymouthy Adams]

The adaptation of a newer master and the selection of that master will be your call, I used last generation Dakota.   Do as I did and go on walkabout at your local wrecking yard you may find something that you prefer.   I do so hate making this a suggested unit as like poor ole Charlie who got slammed for his kits when folks who buy them for install have little to zero skills at resolving such simple issues as a castle nut and whine and moan.   On just installing the rustyhope caliper plates, my castle nut issue was such a simple resolve and no cuts to the castle nut and still using stock backing washer.  Purposely falling off a log would be a harder task to perform.  You can get the very valve kits from some of the rodding shops sell for much higher money off e-bay by shopping around for about 42.00 portioning valve and the two residuals delivered to your door.  You may entail comingling of flare seats with your modern donor master so be sure to check the seats in master and if more prevalent ball style verse inverted flare, get the two short lines that attach to the master so you can flare the one end to that of the inverted flare common to older car and the residual valves.  Often one line is a course thread and one is fine to prevent you from mixing the primary with the secondary.  Some of the masters are stamped with bore size and P for primary outlet (front) and S for secondary outlet (rear).  Plumbing the donor master for remote lines is with use of sweat fittings and copper tubing.  Swaging will come into play, stock swage fitting in a kit will not do the task, get creative here, I used a barbed hose nipple for the small amount of flare needed for inserting the fitting into the tube.  Seating the fitting and making a retainer plate for the new fabricated adapters and I suggest two slots at the bottom in line with the fill holes of the master internal bore and do clean the ends of your tubing from burrs and other trash/residue.  Routing of the remote fill lines I suggest Adel clamps or similar to keep these dressed and out of way of other items affixed in the area.  The reservoir can be had for 15.00 delivered to your door if you shop wisely on e-bay.  The EPDM rubber can be had at some of the local supply houses, most auto parts stores and online want 3.50 to 7.50 a foot.  Ten foot roll which is plenty is only 14.20 with tax locally.  Do your own shopping as I have no clue the stores in your area.  But as a hint, many stores in my area gouge as they have so little competition.  You will be making a bracket also for the remote reservoir, this can be out of lighter metal as there is so little weight involved and no stresses applied.  This may sound a bit vague but if anyone is the least bit creative and understand the mechanical and principal two unit cannot occupy the same space....you should have no issues.  Time, well it will take a bit to fabricate the brackets, adapters and rod extension and assemble/sweat the fittings for the nipples.  None of this is hard, none is really expensive, even a new master can be had for 46.00 verse my cost of 10.00 from a sealed and working brake system in the wrecking yard.  I chose the wrecking yard unit over a new as this was all experimental and different to the normal manner and means referenced by most our forum members and while I do not mind spending money, I do not like wasting it while doing mockup.  Again, your call, lack of success is based mainly on lack of imagination and initiative, failure to see the obvious little confidence in one's self to adapt and overcome.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lucky 69]

Plymouth Adams, wow thank you so much very much for such a great and informative post. All suggestions and info is up to your self to use it or not. This is what I was looking for to help me. I too have installed Charlie's kit (rustyhope) and there is nothing wrong with it. Only thing I missed placed my original castle nut and had to use a different one, that I had to notch. Very easy and well made kit. I am.sure I will come across them in the garage somewhere. Sence I have it all on the car know. If so will probably pop them them on. Thanks for the pic's. I like the way you did it. I will have to head to some junk yards, getting harder to find. But it's fun to go threw them,at least for me. I didn't want to cut floor up or have something protruding up. This will work fine.i look at Wilwood and other rod stuff but they were pricey. Nice well made, but expensive. But thank you again for helping me. People should take note to how you posted, that's how it should be. Dont know if Charlie is still selling kits but if he is ever one that needs one should buy. Very helpful and informative when I email him. Thanks again 

[Sniper]

If your comprehension of my detailing Charlie's deficiencies both in his mediocre engineering (least of which was the cotter pin issue) and his poorly written instructions is so poor maybe you should refrain from "helping" anyone.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Thanks, hope this does help you out, this was not or ever intended written to be a HOW TO in the sense everyone should do it this way, it is however a HOW DID as it was just my approach and the manner I collected parts, fabricated the brackets and married the old with the newer.  I like many have upgraded my car interior to a nice carpet and the last thing I wish to be doing is pulling it back to check fluid level or add fluid as the components wear with accumulated mileage and a master with integral reservoir was not what I wanted as even with the kit or devised adapter for lines for a remote is just to close to the floor pan and requires the floor access.   This eliminated that completely and while my lines are close to the floor pan, they are not required routine serviceable items.   Even before this upgrade my stock master I converted to remote fill and thus never had a need to service at the floor fill. 

 

IF you intend to mount similar fashion, do ensure your bracket at the master mount faceplate is fully gusseted at the rear which is not obvious in the picture but totally needed for strength and peace of mind.  

[lucky 69]

Will do. That was my thought exactly have to take apart the carpet to service it, no thanks. Thanks for the info on bracket too. This will be fun, break out the cardboard for a template. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

4 hours ago, lucky 69 said:

Dont know if Charlie is still selling kits but if he is ever one that needs one should buy. Very helpful and informative when I email him. Thanks again 

Charlie is still selling kits, as are a few other people/companies and of course some prefer one over the others which is typical.  His design and parts list has been appropriated by other sellers by copying his plate and parts list.  No kit I have read about here was without an issue or two raised here on the forum by installers, but none were to a point the task to resolve was over the top or way out of hand.  Some were never addressed in terms of a fix either by the seller so be careful there and always ask before buying.  Reading here will bring up these points on each kit so you can be informed.  Charlie's kit does require a bit of human intervention and to that end each user must evaluate their capabilities to do the drilling and tapping to complete the install.   It is this feature that makes his kits very affordable.   Charlie is always there with tech support.  I have never seen him let a buyer flounder about and the few cases you read about, the buyer had not even contacted for support when he hit a snag.  These kits vary mainly in what you can or are willing to take on as an at home DIYer.   The drilling and tapping I found most easily done on car also and the need to disassemble will be the call of the installer based on abilities and tools and experience doing similar tasks.  The shopping market out there is sometimes filled with choices and sometimes not so much of a choice.  Many can be very costly while others as bargain basement one can hope to find.  It is good to have choices as many do not have the time, tools, space or patience to do the added steps done in a machine shop verse those kits supplied bolt on by others.   You paying up front for this in their kit.

[lucky 69]

That's good to hear glad he's still making stuff I had no problem reading his instructions. It pretty much went right together and you can't beat the price. Plus if you had any questions you could just email him he's really quick about getting back with you. Plus I have all the parts list so if something goes wrong I know what to go back and get.

 

 

 

 

 

[Adam H P15 D30]

Charlie's kit is the way to go especially if you want to retain the stock 15" wheels.  Well thought out and well built with excellent support from Charlie.  The spindles drill and tap easily, there  is plenty of adjustment in the tie rods to adjust for the thickness of the caliper plates.  Also running the stock castle nut and washer, installed correctly.  Sometimes people need to be smarter than the spindle...

[lucky 69]

5 minutes ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

Charlie's kit is the way to go especially if you want to retain the stock 15" wheels.  Well thought out and well built with excellent support from Charlie.  The spindles drill and tap easily, there  is plenty of adjustment in the tie rods to adjust for the thickness of the caliper plates.  Also running the stock castle nut and washer, installed correctly.  Sometimes people need to be smarter than the spindle...

Yes they do ?

[Plymouthy Adams]

As an update now that the task is complete I wrote a small narrative and a few pictures if case anyone may wish to use this technique affixing the castle nut over those aforementioned in the instructions supplied.  If Charlie updates his instructions, he says this method will be shown also. But for now, I will post it here.  Just another means to an end and your decision to use any suggested method.

 

SPINDLE UPGRADE

EARLY MOPAR

 

This is the second part of the spindle mods that is in addition to the drilling and tapping for the mounting of the caliper adapter plate.  This will guide you through drilling the spindle for a slot for use of the later rotors without need to modify or change either the backing washer or the spindle castle nuts.  This can affect your return to stock but then, so does drilling and tapping the spindle for the caliper plate.  Make your own call before proceeding. The spindle can be drilled as follows as yet another tweak for the Rustyhope kit or those that have ripped off and selling his design and parts list as their own.  First run the nut on backwards beyond the original hole.  Insert a drill bit into the original hole and lightly lock the bit in place with the castle nut.  Now drill a starter hole using short flute stronger starter bit using the keyway as a guide, suggest to center punch this to assure the bit will not walk.  Drill the hole using the bit as a back stop and if you wish, you can use the second castle nut, also on backward as further support/guide to allow you to see your bit at work and help ensure a straight drilled hole.  You can drill all the way through from the top or you can do this from the top and bottom of the spindle by center punching from below using the castle nut slot again as a guide.  The center of the spindle here was hollow near the outer edge of the new hole with my stock spindles and as such I found my drill bit wanting to deflect following the taper at this center bore, so I found drilling to the center from the top and then from the bottom side of the spindle the easier task, prevents bit deflection from the taper of the center bore should your spindle be like mine.  Once the pilot hole is drilled you can enlarge to that of the original hole and by angling your bit, you can drill the middle of the two bores to create the slot.  This was just a few minutes per spindle to make this mod.  Original castle nut and washer is retained with no cuts or modifications to washer or nut needed, the spindle with new cut slot is now prepped and the wheel bearings thus are totally adjustable and the cotter pin will cleanly and neatly lock the nut in place.   Below, a few pictures to assist you with the task.

 

added note, do carefully clean the new holes, spindle counter bore and thread area of drill chips.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Plymouthy Adams

[lucky 69]

Very nice thanks for the info and pics.

[Dansk]

I just completed a rusty hope disc brake conversion on my 51 Windsor Deluxe. I made it work with advice from Charlie. I think that any install on these cars will have issues, here were my challenges. 1) His brackets come as bare metal, be prepared to paint them for corrosion protection. 2) I drilled and tapped my spindles on the car, if I were to do it again, I would have removed them and done it on a Bridgeport or drill press but it did work the way I did it. 3) The spacer he supplied was incorrect for my spindles and allowed the rotor inner face to contact the spindle. I had to fabricate additional shims to gain clearance (0.050"). One of the bolts he supplied was too long and protruded through the spindle to the rotor. I made thick washers to correct it. 4) He specified to buy banjo bolts yet they also came with the calipers he specified so it was money wasted. 5) the dust caps he specified did not fit the rotors he specified. I had to buy Dodge Diplomat caps that were correct and even then, I had to trim 0.100" off because they contacted the outer bearing race before they seated against the rotor hub.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Thumbing through a folder and I came across the pic of a spindle nut I referred to in one of the posts that I wish the nuts on the Plymouth were as simple as these....a picture to show the manner of locking nut I was referring to.....

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Plymouthy Adams

[lucky 69]

Ya I agree simplicity is nice. Times I think we over think a design. Plus your like me. I always take pics of everything. It helps thanks