Full Flow Oil Filter Part Number and Applications

[Matt Wilson]

1 hour ago, Sniper said:

Can a spacer be made to shift the position of the filter stand up, down or forward enough to clear?  I assume rearward is no go, lol.

Hmmm....that's an interesting idea.  It would have to be a pretty thick spacer.  Maybe 2 to 2-1/2" thick, but might work.  I'll mock up a wooden block as a spacer in the near future.  Thanks for the idea!

[Dodgeb4ya]

I put a 1954 Chrysler 265 in my 52 Dodge pu in 1973 using the stock 265 oil filter..

The PU has the the stock Dodge 4 speed bell housing and OE starter.... a very close fit ( starter and oil filter) but no issues other than if starter had to be removed.

Starter to oil filter clearance was about a 1/2" as I recall. I have since have installed the spin on adapter to simplify oil changes.

 A pic of a close fitting factory starter on a 53-54 Chrysler 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Dodgeb4ya
correct data

[Matt Wilson]

19 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

I put a 1954 Chrysler 265 in my 52 Dodge pu in 1973 using the stock 265 oil filter..

The PU has the the stock Dodge 4 speed bell housing and OE starter.... a very close fit ( starter and oil filter) but no issues other than if starter had to be removed.

Starter to oil filter clearance was about a 1/2" as I recall. I have since have installed the spin on adapter to simplify oil changes.

I hope I have the same luck that you had.  I'm not terribly optimistic, though.  My starter doesn't quite go to the center of the diamond, the way Wallytoo was talking, but it's close.  As I said before, I probably won't know for sure until I bolt the engine and starter onto the bellhousing, and try to fit the filter too.  Or I might be able to do a more accurate mock-up with the engine still on the stand.

 

Here are a couple of photos of the starter.  It may not look like it, but the tape measure starts at the rear face of the mounting flange, and the distance to the forward tip or nub is about 9-1/2".

[Dodgeb4ya]

Tomorrow I'll measure another 265 engine I have and using a DT starter to see how close the two are... 

[Matt Wilson]

39 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

 

 

6 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Tomorrow I'll measure another 265 engine I have and using a DT starter to see how close the two are... 

Thanks so much!  One thing that may vary across some engines is the height of the starter.  Here's a pic of my bellhousing, and you can see that the starter sits pretty high, whereas the pic of Don Coatney's engine (my original post that began this thread) seems to show the starter sitting lower.  That could be the difference in having these difficulties or not.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Matt Wilson
Forgot the photo the first time!

[Dodgeb4ya]

Thanks for that pic... I will use that to be sure of placement height of the starter.

Your starter looks to be 9-1/2" overall length. face mount surface to the end of starter bushing end plate protrusion.

[Matt Wilson]

2 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

 

Good image.  Definitely shows a high-mounted starter, like mine.  Just a question of whether it is as long a starter as mine.

[Matt Wilson]

One other piece of info:  The starter body diameter is 4.5" on mine.  I don't know if they're all the same diameter or not, but maybe that could change the potential for interference in some instances.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Ok..Here's what I found..

My starters on my trucks and truck engines are all MCL 6103 and 6106.

The diameter is 4-1/2"

The length from the bell housing mount surface to the brush end plate is 7-1/2" To the end plate bushing protrusion about 8-3/8".

The top of the starter to the top machined part of head is right at 6-1/4"

There is only about 1/4" clearance between the starter end plate and oil filter. The end plate bushing protrusion is down below the large diameter of the housing.

Shown is a picture of the 7-1/2" long MCL 6103 starter as commonly used on the 1949 thru at least 1952 1/2 -2 ton trucks best I could figure out in Hollander's and DT books...gets very complicated.

Anyway you have a earlier longer type starter that will not work...bottom line sadly.

[Sniper]

Would it be possible to just thread the holes in the block and run a remote filter?

[Matt Wilson]

2 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Anyway you have a earlier longer type starter that will not work...bottom line sadly.

I think you're right.  I wonder if the shorter starter will interchange.  The lever looks pretty similar to mine, though not exactly the same.

 

Alternatively, I could still try the spacer between the block and the filter, that Sniper suggested.

 

Thanks so much for looking into this.  You obviously have some significant resources, in terms of vehicles and books covering these vehicles.  Your willingness to spend time looking at them for our benefit and to share what you learn is appreciated.

[Matt Wilson]

2 hours ago, Sniper said:

Would it be possible to just thread the holes in the block and run a remote filter?

Yes, I do believe it's a viable option, and one I'll probably pursue if I can't make the factory housing work.  But I just think the factory piece is cool, so I'd really like to try to make it work.  I'll probably poke around to see if I can find out if a shorter starter will work on my truck, but I'll also look into mocking up a spacer between the block and the filter, as you suggested.  That might be the easier and cheaper option, but it doesn't hurt to check into both options.  It'll probably be a few weeks before I get to the mock-up, as I work during the week, and I'll be going on a family trip a week from now.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Easiest way would be if you can is to use one of the later short starters.

Clocking of the nose cone and pedal lever are the issue.

Using a short starter would eliminate making an adapter or using a remote filter.

[Matt Wilson]

17 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Easiest way would be if you can is to use one of the later short starters.

Clocking of the nose cone and pedal lever are the issue.

Using a short starter would eliminate making an adapter or using a remote filter.

I don't suppose you can tell me how many teeth are on the flywheels that mate with those shorter starters?  Or how many teeth are on those starters, or maybe both?  I can count the teeth on mine when I get home.  I know the flathead flywheels and starters had at least a couple of different tooth counts over the years.  A mismatch in that regard would throw a starter swap out of the running, unless I want to swap flywheels or ring gears (which I don't).

Edited January 24, 2022 by Matt Wilson

[Dodgeb4ya]

The starter pinion gear has nine teeth on it...I do not have east access to count a light duty truck flywheel...all are on engines...the cars I think are 146 teeth. I think?

[Dodgeb4ya]

The ring gear for all models/tonnages of trucks  1948-1953 are the same part# ....1138903...except the big Moly Block engines.

Of course critical the starter pinion gear will extend deep enough into the ring gear...meaning the length of the starter nose cone needs to match what you have...length of my MCH nose from flange mount surface to end tip is 3".

Edited January 30, 2022 by Dodgeb4ya

[Dodgeb4ya]

1138903 DT ring gear...

146 teeth.

14.640"  outside diameter.

[wallytoo]

great information, rob.  the starter in my ‘48 is longer than the 6103/6106.  i might just look for one of those to replace the original, so that i can use the filter.

[Matt Wilson]

Good info, thanks.  I checked my flywheel and starter last night.  Flywheel has 146 teeth, starter has 9.  Flywheel diameter lines up with the figure you stated, too.  The nose cone on my starter is 3", like yours.

 

I found a post on our own p15-d24 website,

 

https://p15-d24.com/topic/40719-6v-starter-teeth/#comment-432141

 

in which someone says the MCH-6106 can be purchased as starter part number 91-06-1821, from Wilson Electric (no relation to me), and their website just says it's an MCH type unit.  Various sources, including O'Reilly, advertise them for around $300.  That's for a 6V unit. 

 

Wilson's site says there is another unit that's the 12V equivalent, p/n 91-06-1825, which they say is an MDG-MDF type.

 

Finally, there's one on the Wilson site with p/n 91-06-1822, which is listed as an MCL type that's supposed to be the 6V equivalent of the 1825 (not sure why it didn't just point back to the 1821 unit as being the 6V equivalent).

 

I don't know the differences between all these "types," but I'll try calling Wilson to find out.  I already called O'Reilly and they showed the 91-06-1821 (MCH type) as being available through special order only, but they didn't have a listing for the other two starters.  They also don't have dimensions like they do for some other parts.  I was hoping they would so I could verify the length and some other dimensions.  When I call Wilson, hopefully they'll be able to give me some dimensions, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

Going again to Wilson's site, I zoomed in on the photos of their starters and I verified for myself that the 1821 unit is indeed an MCH-6106.  It says so on a sticker on the side of the starter.  The 1822 unit is an MCL-6126, and the 1825 is an MDG-6003.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Matt Wilson
I mis-stated original starter p/ns. Should have been MDG-MDF near the top of this post;. Also updated with new info in other places.

[Matt Wilson]

I called Wilson and they don't have any dimensions for these starters, although they were able to tell me that the 1821 is shorter than my current Power Wagon starter (MAW-4032), but not how much shorter.  I somehow neglected to ask about the other two starters, but I can always call back if I need to.

 

They also weren't able to tell me what the different OEM part number prefixes mean (MCH, MCL, MDG-MDF).

 

They did say that moving the lever from my starter to theirs would not void the warranty, but opening up the motor would.  I think I may need to swap levers, based on the photos of their starters that I found on their site, which they said were accurate photos.

[Matt Wilson]

On 1/23/2022 at 7:22 PM, Dodgeb4ya said:

Ok..Here's what I found..

My starters on my trucks and truck engines are all MCL 6103 and 6106.

 

Do you happen to know the difference between the MCL-6106 that is on some of your vehicles and MCH-6106?  It seems that the MCH-6106 (i.e., the 91-06-1821 Wilson equivalent) might be the only one I can get.  Thanks again.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Matt Wilson

[Matt Wilson]

Yet another update...

 

I called one of the very few places that advertises the 1821 and 1825 starters (Filter Products Corporation), and they told me the 1825 is not in stock and the only 1821 in their system is in Winnipeg, Canada.  It's not worth it for me to pay the price of the 1821 ($250 plus tax and shipping all the way from Canada), especially when there's still some risk that it won't fit and I'd have to pay return shipping.  So now I'm leaning toward making a spacer to mount under the filter base.

 

I can continue to look around to see if these units turn up for sale by individuals, but the spacer may be the way to go in the meantime.

 

If anyone thinks of any other options, please let me know.  Thanks for all the help so far.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Did you place an ad here? Someone here must have one or can offer some help...

Wrecking yards...ebay..m

I do not know the difference between the MCH and the MCL starters.

Trying to go thru the parts books and Hollander on starters and starter parts differences  is endless...

I started to but it wasn't any easy fun?

 

[Matt Wilson]

No worries, don't spend any more time.  I appreciate all the help you've provided so far.

 

I had thought about placing an ad here, but haven't done it yet.

 

I did look on eBay.  I'll look for wrecking yards in my area that have old cars, although I don't think there are many.  The upside to finding one in a wrecking yard is that I could go measure the parts before purchasing.

 

Of course, there are also old car parts suppliers, some of which are wrecking yards, and maybe I will, now that I have some part numbers to try.  Maybe they'd even be willing to take measurements for me.

[Dodgeb4ya]

I did find a 1951-52 DT engine with a MCH6106 (1268125) starter on it.

It looks to be a short starter.

I will pull the starter off it this weekend for more info.

The truck the engine and starter came out of was a HA truck 236 engine. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Dodgeb4ya