Fluid Drive - Suggestions

[Bryan]

On the Fluid drive I've read enough to know not to wobble the drive plate on the FD, but what about the side near the crankshaft?  I've loosened the nuts all the way round (3 studs are missing) but it won't pull off. The casing seems to be thin, so I know not to pry on it.  Wanting to stick some wood handles between the crankshaft hub and FD and wiggle it off, just don't want to screw it up? Any hints?

[James_Douglas]

Well,

 

First of all get that input shaft out as it will act as a fulcrum and crack the carbon seal. Next get 3 or 4 wood tapers made up and lightly tap them around the flywheel so the thing cannot move and use bailing wire around those wedges to keep them in place. You cannot "see" a cracked carbon seal and you will kick yourself if it leaks a month after you  put it back in.

 

Now, you mention that some of the studs are missing? This is a real problem. It is possible that someone cut them off to place this coupling into a non-fluid drive crankshaft. If that is the case then I would suspect that the remaining studs are over stressed and could be bent. Hence why the thing will not just drop off like it should.

 

Take a flat metal bar and a small flat of wood and see if you can pry between the block and the studs to back it off a little. If you can then stick a pry bar between the crankshaft flange and the center of the coupling.

 

I personally would not use a fluid coupling if someone cut some of the studs off of it to fit it onto a non-FD crankshaft.

 

Good luck, James

[Bryan]

Got it off.  Two of the studs are broke off clean in the FD.  Separated by one stud.  The crank is 8 holes just like the FD.  Looks like in 1949 when the guy cracked the block, whoever he had change it broke them.  Will probably drill them out and fill it with fluid, let it set a month or so to see if it leaks. If it does I think the other car I have is FD. But it's 45 miles away in the woods at my father's house.  

Edited January 1, 2022 by Bryan

[Dodgeb4ya]

Pretty amazing some body could break off one or more of the eight  7/16" X 20 FD studs?

 

[Bryan]

1 hour ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Pretty amazing some body could break off one or more of the eight  7/16" X 20 FD studs?

 

Yeah, the others were stiff but not impossible to loosen. Don't know what happened..maybe they couldn't figure out the alignment and cut them off. I'll check, then have to figure out what to do. Would prefer to keep FD, but bet it would be expensive to buy another from one of these specialty stores.  Plus these ultra sensitive carbon gaskets that seem to leak according to the slightest wobble..don't know whether I want to fool with that. Are they delicate because of the age or were they always like that? Nothing in the manuals about bracing the drive disk.  I'm also worried about why the engine block was full of antifreeze. I need to take everything out and check for cracks. If I can't see them myself I'll have the block magnafluxed.

[MarcDeSoto]

I would look for another FD from a parts car that was complete and not leaking if you can find one.  They should be around somewhere.  You have got to have all the studs!  

[Dodgeb4ya]

Those FD couplings are not really that delicate... problems occur with sloppy handling and hanging the trans in the coupling.

Dealer mechanics back in the day probably never used wedges when servicing the couplings or doing clutch jobs.

I never did either...never had an issue.

Now days being how old the couplings  are and tough to get repaired properly best to be extra careful with a good one.

I think the eight studs on the FD coupling are just that threaded studs....never attempted to remove them but I think tomorrow I will find out as I have a nice Snappy stud removal tool set... see if I can remove them.

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Dodgeb4ya
Curiosity

[Bryan]

6 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

I think the eight studs on the FD coupling are just that threaded studs....never attempted to remove them but I think tomorrow I will find out as I have a nice Snappy stud removal tool set... see if I can remove them.

 

That would be appreciated. These are cut off clean flush, look polished.  I have a left hand drill hog set, but would have to lay the FD flat on my workbench and drill from above. Do you know how much used FDs are, or repair prices?   I might have one in an old 48 Dodge in the woods at my fathers, but if I could fix the problem cheap enough, would be preferable to paying to haul the car 45 miles here, and pulling it out to find it leaks too..

[Dodgeb4ya]

All I know is from people who have had them rebuilt only to find out they had vibrations after the so called rebuild.

And or the old FD was not rebuildable after it was cut open.

I think so called rebuilds are somewhere around a $1000.00?

They cannot simply be rebuilt like a torque converter....noting to rebuild ..just a front bearing, graphite ring and very specialized high quality machine surfacing work for the graphite ring seal surfaces, maybe a new bellows if they can even find or have one.

Then the re-welding the unit back together so it is as accurate and balanced as factory new... that's where the rebuild failures seem to happen from what I've seen and heard.

[Bryan]

Reckon then the best plan is to be patient, fill the FD with proper oil and see if it leaks.  If good then extract the studs & install new, check the other studs for straightness, set it aside for a while and see if it still does not leak.   I toyed with the idea of converting it to a normal clutch, since I'm going to have to get into the transmission to stop leaks (could replace input shaft), planning to replace the driveshaft with a modern non trunnion one (change length),  replace the clutch since mine is on the border of wear... but really would like to keep the FD.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Simple studs....not in there too tight either....drill em out...don't drill too deep!

[Greg51T&CWagon]

Miller made a tool to check a fluid drive for leaks. It requires draining, filling it with air and submerging it in water. #C-668. It is a threaded fitting for an air hose.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Greg51T&CWagon

[Bryan]

17 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

All I know is from people who have had them rebuilt only to find out they had vibrations after the so called rebuild.

And or the old FD was not rebuildable after it was cut open.

I think so called rebuilds are somewhere around a $1000.00?

They cannot simply be rebuilt like a torque converter....noting to rebuild ..just a front bearing, graphite ring and very specialized high quality machine surfacing work for the graphite ring seal surfaces, maybe a new bellows if they can even find or have one.

Then the re-welding the unit back together so it is as accurate and balanced as factory new... that's where the rebuild failures seem to happen from what I've seen and heard.

Amazon.com: Graphite Carbon & O-Ring Seals, compatible with Fluid-Drive Chrysler, Dodge, Mopar, DeSoto 1061168 : Automotive  Not buying this but wonder if it's the right one?

[Bryan]

11 hours ago, Greg51T&CWagon said:

Miller made a tool to check a fluid drive for leaks. It requires draining, filling it with air and submerging it in water. #C-668. It is a threaded fitting for an air hose.

It's all your fault ? ?  Seriously, thanks..that will be a good start. Reckon I can sell them later for what I bought them for..

[Bryan]

Also interesting.. Fluid Drive seal and bearing/bushing advice needed - Chrysler Products - General - Antique Automobile Club of America - Discussion Forums (aaca.org)

[Bryan]

This is interesting but you have to register to see the shopping cart.. Torque Converter Parts & Transmission Parts-Tri Component: TORQUE-CONVERTER

[Dodgeb4ya]

3 hours ago, Bryan said:

Amazon.com: Graphite Carbon & O-Ring Seals, compatible with Fluid-Drive Chrysler, Dodge, Mopar, DeSoto 1061168 : Automotive  Not buying this but wonder if it's the right one?

Yes that is the correct one.

They sell a few of the FD parts and have for quite some time.

 

[Greg51T&CWagon]

Yep I've been staring at the bushing tool you bought for a few weeks. Note the graphite seal instructions says to test with no more than 14 PSI. didn't see the psi mentioned on the Miller part instruction sheet.

[Bryan]

On the Tri-component site even registering doesn't help.  Just as a test I did a checkout on a few items.   Once you have an order ready they "will email you a price quote". Kind of sucks but probably better than Moparpro..

[Bryan]

Was feeling a little better so I went out to do a few measurements.  The Fluid Drive nut is 1 7/8".    I was testing bolt holes for pulling the cam timing gear, and found the FD drive plate had the same bolt size and pitch 5/16-18.  The drive plate threads are all the way through, so I screwed a bolt in.  Got to thinking, instead of trying to cut wooden wedges and wire them in, one could thread bolts in every hole around the edge and just stop them when they touch the body. Would have a brace all the way round.

[Bryan]

Finally took a picture of using the bolts as a brace instead of wedges.  Bought various lengths at Tractor Supply for the plate puller tool.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Good idea but I wouldn't get too carried away.

I'm sure the dealers back in the day didn't either.

The time to be careful is when R&R 'ing the trans.

[Ron42Dodge]

I had my Fluid Drive Seal replaced by Northwest Transmissions ages ago.  I shipped the Fluid Drive unit to them, they put the graphite ring and bellows seal in and shipped it back.  No wood wedges.  I put it back in without any wedges and it has been leak free for the last 20 years.

 

[wagoneer]

On 1/3/2022 at 6:39 AM, Bryan said:

It's all your fault ? ?  Seriously, thanks..that will be a good start. Reckon I can sell them later for what I bought them for..

What a find! Acquiring  such specialty applicable Miller tools is totally worth it! 
 

I had this thought that many tools like the brake tool could be copied and 3d printed from original tools. Some tools don’t need to take stress and can be used for measurement or alignment or very light duty .