1934 Plymouth PE 6-volt Starter Question

[Mac McFarland]

Left message with Then N Now (closed Sats).  Hopefully they will have what I need.

 

 

[keithb7]

Looks like you are on the right track for a kit. Does your fuel pump have a vacuum booster incorporated? 

 

That big black circle in the top right of the image...Prime suspect. The main diaphragm. Time breaks down the old rubber. Ethanol used in modern fuels speed up the eroding process. 

 

I watched a couple of videos on You Tube to get an idea what needed to be done to rebuild the pump. Then I graduated to my Motors Manuals. There are good instructions in there. If you are planning to keep and maintain this '34 Plymouth you should start accumulating a few good service books.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by keithb7

[Mac McFarland]

This is the image of the OUTSIDE of my pump.

 

I saw this kit out there, but wonder if it is the correct one.  Watcha think?

 

I have one Service Manual I purchased (supposedly reprint of an original)---not that good---not that much detail.  I found a .pdf of a '36-'40 online which is good, but not exact for my car.

 

My dad used Motor Manuals a lot (on the farm)...wonder if I can find one dating back to 34 for a Plymouth.

 

 

[keithb7]

Easy-peasy pump-a-leasy.  You can rebuild that. Looks more like a water pump. Lol.  Unscrew that nut on the bottom of the glass bowl. Flip the wire retainer up out of the way. The glass bowl will pop off. If not tap it with a rubber mallet, lightly.

 

I happen to have a spare of the exact same pump here. We got your back. You got this pump rebuild. 

 

 

 

[TodFitch]

1 hour ago, Mac McFarland said:

This is the image of the OUTSIDE of my pump.

 

I saw this kit out there, but wonder if it is the correct one.  Watcha think?

 

I have one Service Manual I purchased (supposedly reprint of an original)---not that good---not that much detail.  I found a .pdf of a '36-'40 online which is good, but not exact for my car.

 

My dad used Motor Manuals a lot (on the farm)...wonder if I can find one dating back to 34 for a Plymouth.

 

 

 

That is not the original pump. Similar, but not exactly the same.

 

There is often some numbers stamped on the top of the mounting flange where the pump bolts on to the block. I can't tell from your photo if there is anything there or not. If there is something there it could help identify exactly what the pump is.

[Mac McFarland]

The only identifier is a metal tag under one of the top screws with the number 587 on it.  I just wonder if that kit (FPA-16) shown above has the correct parts to rebuild it.  

 

I had already removed the bowl when it was still on the car...nudged it back and forth and finally popped off. 

 

I've rebuilt small motor carbs before, so expect this not to be a difficult task...just identifying the correct parts to order is my issue.

 

See small tag with #'s.  

 

 

[TodFitch]

That is probably an AirTex 587 which you can still get new. Here are some listings:

 

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/atx-587

 

https://www.amazon.com/Airtex-587-Mechanical-Fuel-Pump/dp/B0027ICTHA

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mechanical-Fuel-Pump-Airtex-587-/303797459872

 

Might even be this one with the picture upside down: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/CFPB0013P

 

And Then N Now may well have a rebuild kit for less than the retail prices for the above. Fuel pumps are easy to rebuild and given the quality of things, I'd probably trust one I'd rebuilt myself using Then N Now's parts over a new one.

[Mac McFarland]

Well, I do a LOT of Amazon buying, and if this does NOT fit/work I can get my money back, NQA.  So, I ordered the one from them $67). Will be in in a couple of weeks. In the meantime,  Thanks for these leads.

 

I hope to be speaking to Then N Now on Monday and see if they have a kit...I may have to send them photos of mine as there is nothing stamped on it, just that attached tag.  If they do, I may order the kit from them (depending on cost) and when the Amazon one comes in, return it.

 

The other option is to see if anyone knows if that FPA-16 kit shown in an image by keithb7 will fit, I can order that---found that online earlier.

 

 It sure DOES LOOK like an AirTex 587.

[Mac McFarland]

Well, gentlemen....you have been a fantastic source of knowledge.  I finally received the AirTex 587 fuel pump in ($67) and installed it today (had some difficulty at first, even though I had reinstalled the old twice recently).  Anyway, it was the fuel problem.  The car now starts right up, and runs fine.  Thanks to EVERYONE for their advice and sharing knowledge (I do the same on a program-development website where I advise/help people with programming issues/questions).

 

Now, as the car has been sitting idle for 10 years, I expected some oil leaks (dried gaskets).  And, lo and behold, there are some.  I have not identified precisely where the leaks are yet (but I will), but I suspect one from the transmission, and one from the oil pan.  I guess my question would be, do I have to remove the engine in order to remove the oil pan and replace that gasket?   What is the procedure for removing the oil pan?

 

Next step (in addition to stopping oil leaks) is to get the brakes working...have rebuilt and reinstalled the master cylinder and one broken brake line (am getting assistance from friends to assist in bleeding the brakes).  Then, register the vehicle here in NC.  Then, enjoy some local trips!

 

So, thanks everyone...but would like advice on that oil pan if that is where I suspect the oil leaks to originate.

 

Mac

[TodFitch]

At least on my '33, you can remove and re-install the oil pan with the engine in the car. It is a lot easier with a lift (did it that way once) but you can do it laying on your garage floor (done it that way more than once). Front end suspension and frame cross member are different on your '34 but I suspect you will still have enough clearance.

 

However, I would not be surprised if your leaks are as likely to be things like the front and rear seals.

 

I am not aware of a way to do the front crank seal without pulling the engine (timing chain cover is pretty much hidden behind the A frame piece that holds the front engine mount). You might be able to get to it by removing all the front sheet metal and radiator. But, at least on my '33, the center of the crank is lined up with a hole in the frame for the hand crank and you'd have to jack the front of the engine up some to get that vibration damper/pulley off, etc.

 

You can replace the rear main seal with the engine in the car but it isn’t easy at least if you do it without out a lift (pull transmission, remove clutch & flywheel, etc.). Even with the flywheel off, getting the upper seal properly installed is problematic if you are going with the original style rope seal. The manual says you are supposed to put the seal assembly in place and roll the rope stuff down, hard to do that with the crank in place. I think Olson Gaskets or some other supplier makes a rubber seal that can replace the original rope seal. Might have better luck with that.

 

I have found that a large drip pan with some saw dust or cat litter in it under the engine along with checking the oil level fairly often is easier than getting all the leaks fixed.

[knuckleharley]

1 hour ago, Mac McFarland said:

Well, gentlemen....you have been a fantastic source of knowledge.  I finally received the AirTex 587 fuel pump in ($67) and installed it today (had some difficulty at first, even though I had reinstalled the old twice recently).  Anyway, it was the fuel problem.  The car now starts right up, and runs fine.  Thanks to EVERYONE for their advice and sharing knowledge (I do the same on a program-development website where I advise/help people with programming issues/questions).

 

Now, as the car has been sitting idle for 10 years, I expected some oil leaks (dried gaskets).  And, lo and behold, there are some.  I have not identified precisely where the leaks are yet (but I will), but I suspect one from the transmission, and one from the oil pan.  I guess my question would be, do I have to remove the engine in order to remove the oil pan and replace that gasket?   What is the procedure for removing the oil pan?

 

Next step (in addition to stopping oil leaks) is to get the brakes working...have rebuilt and reinstalled the master cylinder and one broken brake line (am getting assistance from friends to assist in bleeding the brakes).  

Do NOT replace just one rusted out brake line. If it was that rusty,so are the others.

In fact,if you used traditional steel brake line to replace the broken one,remove that also.

 

What you want is the modern copper/nickel brake lines. They don't kink when you bend them,they don't rust inside where you can't tell they are rusting,OR outside where you could if you were looking,and they don't get brittle from vibration. You can buy them by the foot at any auto parts store in the country,and they are stupid cheap when you consider how trustyworthy they are and how much safer your car will be with them. You can literally  bend them with your hand without them kinking.

 

While you are at it,replace all your wheel cylinders and your wheel cylinder hoses.

 

Do NOT try to buy this stuff as "Part # xxxx for a 1934 Plymouth". Get the parts numbers off of the wheel cylinder and so a web search for those parts numbers. I once needed new wheel cylinders for my 39 IHC pu,and the only ones I could find were NOS (how "new" can they be if sitting on a shelf of 50+ years?) and the guy wanted $99.95 EACH for them,plus shipping.

 

So I got the parts number off the wheel cylinders and ran a web search using those values only,and came up with brand new manufactur Warner wheel cylinders for $4.95 ea including shipping from Amazon. Come to find out the 53-54 Corvette used the same wheel cylinders.

 

IMNSHO,anytime you go to repair a part on a antique car or truck that you drive,repair the whole damn unit,not just one part of it. This goes double for brakes and suspension,but with what it costs for a rollback ride home these days,cheap insurance. Plus all the emarrassment it saves you from seeing your jealous neighbors snicker about "the jackleg mechanic didn't make it home. Told ya this would happen!"

 

1 hour ago, Mac McFarland said:

 

Then, register the vehicle here in NC.  Then, enjoy some local trips!

 

So, thanks everyone...but would like advice on that oil pan if that is where I suspect the oil leaks to originate.

 

Mac