331 hemi heads

[gunnibronco]

I'm hoping to get some advice on some heads I have a chance to buy. I'm not an expert and trying to buy good parts at good price for a long term build.  I have a 39 P8 coupe I will be building.  I've had the car for a while but life has gotten in the way of my build.

Over the last few years I have bought 2 51-53 extended bell housing 331s. Both disassembled. Both motors have a set of early heads with rockers. I have one set of exhaust manifolds. One motor came with a ceramic coated Weiand 2x4 intake with carter carbs (no tstat in manifold). One motor came with a 1954 4bbl factory intake manifold (tstat in manifold).

I expect I will bore the block out. I'd like to go up to the 354 bore size, assuming one of my blocks is solid enough.

From what I've read the early heads don't flow well. I'm guessing that both the 1954 4bbl and the Weiand 2x4 would outflow the heads.

I've found someone selling several sets of heads, rockers, and exhaust manifolds.

He has a single 1955 head (casting #1556157-1).

He has what he claims is a matching 1954-55 set (casting #1632158-1 & 1832159-1- I'm wondering if this is actually 1632159-1). These numbers don't match what I've found on line. Are these actually 54/55 heads? One google search came up with 54/55 Dodge truck heads. Are they better than my 51-53 heads? Do I need matching rockers & exhaust manifolds or will my 331 rockers & exhaust work?

He also has what appears to be 3x 1956 354 heads (castings 1619823-1). Would these be a good head for my motor?

The prices seem fair but they are a long drive away (4 hours each way). I don't know what to look for and really don't want to drive that far if it's not what I want.

Thanks.

[Andydodge]

Have you been in touch with Hot Heads?......also strongly suggest you chase up a copy of the Tex Smith Hemi book by Ron Cerdino, lots of good info there and finally suggest you get on the HAMB.........be respectful with the HAMB guys and you'll get answers promptly............sounds like you have the makings of a good project.................andyd  

[40Club]

Actually Don't believe you can bore a 331 block to 354 but i could be wrong check with machine shop

 

[gunnibronco]

57 minutes ago, Andydodge said:

Have you been in touch with Hot Heads?......also strongly suggest you chase up a copy of the Tex Smith Hemi book by Ron Cerdino, lots of good info there and finally suggest you get on the HAMB.........be respectful with the HAMB guys and you'll get answers promptly............sounds like you have the makings of a good project.................andyd  

 

Thanks, I'll look for the book.  I've posted on the HAMB and HHH's forum as well.

[gunnibronco]

37 minutes ago, 40Club said:

Actually Don't believe you can bore a 331 block to 354 but i could be wrong check with machine shop

 

I've read if the block is sonic tested it can be done.  I'm not an expert and only going by what I've read.  I'll be doing more research before my build for sure.

 

[Sniper]

331 bore is 3.8125 in.

354 bore is 3.9375 in.

 

That's a .125" difference, 1/8 in.  That's a lot, you would definitely be wise to sonic check it before boring out that far.  It's been done but it's pretty much wasting that block for any further rebuilds.

 

For some good info on the early Hemis http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/hemi-c3.htm

 

One final thing to consider before spending a nickle on an extended bell Hemi.  What are you going to do for a transmission?  That extended bell limits your option.

 

[gunnibronco]

Thanks,

 

I've had the extended 331 blocks for a while now.  I know about the difficulty mounting transmissions and have read about all the adapters.  From what I can tell, I've gotten pretty good deals on both.  Looks like I could sell the intake manifolds for more than what I have invested.  If I came across a well priced 54 or 55 block, I would buy that and sell off the extended blocks I have.

 

I did more reading last night and realized what you've said about punching the block to a 354.  It can be done, but really shouldn't.  After reading, I will probably not do that, and stick with a minimal overbore and rebuild.

Thanks for the  link, I'll look through those pages.

[mrwrstory]

I had a 331 bored to 354,....back in he day.  I used stock 354 pistons.   No problems.  Most, if not all blocks back then had lotsa meat because of early casting technology.  That said, I agree that a sonic check would confirm if there is any core shift.  Also, Hot Hemi Heads is a generous source of advice and info.  Also,...a local friend purchased an adapter that mates a 331 to a Chev/GM transmission. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by mrwrstory
added text

[gunnibronco]

I'm getting good information.  Thanks to all.

 

How do you add the thermostat and water outlet to an early 331 when switching to 55 and later intake and heads?  I'm guessing you have to change some of the front dress.  I can't seem to find the info.  Hot Hemi Head's web site is wonky and keeps failing to load for me.

[mrwrstory]

Be patient and talk to Hot Hemi Heads in real time next week.  I think that area of the engine is pretty much the same as my Dodge Hemi.  If so,... there is a kit that adapts a SBC water pump which is what I did.  It requires that you modify the front cover.  I retained the original thermostat housing and cut off the old water pump housing.  In your case, you will also need to address the early motor mount.  Again Hot Heads has kits for that or you can do a lot yourself. 

[mrwrstory]

The last pic shows the adapters and the Chev water pump with the timing cover I modified. 

[James_Douglas]

I have a vague memory that the Chrysler and Desoto Hemi's and perhaps the Dodge had different lifter and valve angles. I have that big book about all the MOPAR engines that goes into detail.  I would suggest you talk with someone who is an expert in these engines...less...you end up buying parts that are not compatible.

 

James

[mrwrstory]

1 hour ago, James_Douglas said:

I have a vague memory that the Chrysler and Desoto Hemi's and perhaps the Dodge had different lifter and valve angles. I have that big book about all the MOPAR engines that goes into detail.  I would suggest you talk with someone who is an expert in these engines...less...you end up buying parts that are not compatible.

 

James

I'm excited for your project!  Hope I'm not contributing more than you want to know/hear.

The Hemi book is your best source or comparative info.  It's outta print but can probably be found used.

Stress contacting  http://www.hothemiheads.com/

----In my opinion, everything you need to consider has nothing to do with valve/lifter angles.  It is what it is on your engine and any mod for waterpump or engine mounting has nothing to do with that subject.  BTW, Speedway Motors has an engine mount that will work for your custom installation.

----Re-reading your original post,,....I believe the '54-'55 heads are the same as your '51-'53 heads.  Hemi heads all flow exceptionally well.  Yes, later heads, like '56-57 flow better but not to the point that you would notice the diff. unless you have a really big cam and are racing your car to a high RPM.  Save your money.  Buy some headers.  Maybe spend your time matching ports.

Your 2x4 Weiand manifold should be aluminum and worth something.  The factory 4 bbl is likely iron.  Save the weight.  Learn how to rebuild the carburetors on YouTube.

Also one of our forum members  "Wayfarer"  is very knowledgeable and may be able to provide some parts and references.

Good luck,...keep posting,.... send me a "private message" if you wish.

Where you at???????

Edited November 29, 2019 by mrwrstory
added text

[mrwrstory]

Here are a few more that may be of interest

 

[gunnibronco]

Thanks for all the info.
 

Here is what I've come to learn:

 

51-53 heads are fairly restrictive and lower flowing than 54+ heads.  They run out of air about 4000 rpm, but will be adequate for a street driven car.  Small round ports in the 51-53 heads, larger oval ports in the 54+ heads.

51-54 used a water cross over with the t-stat housing in the intake manifold.  54 was the only year that OEM offered a 4bbl with the crossover & t-stat in the intake.  I happen to have one that came with the 2nd 331 I bought. I've attached pics of the factory 4bbl I bought, and a Edmunds aftermarket 2x4 with this design.

55+ (331,354,392) heads & intakes don't use the water crossover/t-stat housing in the intake, but use one built into the front dress.  

To use 55+ head & intake manifold on a 51-54 block/front dress you have to add a cross over with t-stat housing.  HHH sells 2 versions:
http://hothemiheads.com/water_pumps/crossover_cast_aluminum.html
http://hothemiheads.com/water_pumps/crossover_and_housing.html
 

54-56 331 heads, and 354 heads all flow about the same in stock form.  55,56 "555" or "triple nickle" heads (casting #1556157) are probably the most desirable, as they can be modified to flow more than others.  54 flow similarly and work with the 51-54 intakes with the water cross over in the intake manifold.

I've also included a pic of my Weiand 2x4 manifold w/2 Carters.   I got this with the first 331 I bought.  It is a vintage part w/"Say Why And" on it.  It's been ceramic coated.  I have no idea what it's worth.  HHH sells the new version for $529.  I saw one on Ebay around $1000 without ceramic coated or carbs.
http://hothemiheads.com/intake_manifolds/weiand_intake_2x4.html

All the factory rocker assemblies are the same for 331, 354, & 392 heads

Edited November 29, 2019 by gunnibronco
clairity

[gunnibronco]

I'm leaning towards picking up a set of the 354 heads and using my Weiand 2x4 intake and a cross over.  They are a good price, flow well, work with my intake, and since my 51-53 heads will have to be rebuilt anyways, the cost is fairly minimal.

The 55-56 331 heads I can buy are "Industrial" heads casting #1632159-1.  I have been told that the 55-56 Industrial heads are a crap shoot as they were intended for industrial (pumps, etc) applications and 'don't follow the rules'.  Castings, valves, and specs can vary.

[gunnibronco]

Anyone interested can check out my car.  I hate to admit it but I got it in 2012 and haven't done anything to it except accumulate parts.  Life has taken a few twists and I haven't gotten around to the car.  I relocated a couple years ago and have no shop.  I'm finishing a new shop up and hoping to get to work on the car 'soon'.  

 

[mrwrstory]

I also forgot to mention,....beware of HAMB input!!!  Lotsa inexperienced opinion.  Ya know they're like a-- h---s.  Everybody has one ?

[gunnibronco]

2 minutes ago, mrwrstory said:

I also forgot to mention,....beware of HAMB input!!!  Lotsa inexperienced opinion.  Ya know they're like a-- h---s.  Everybody has one ?

I gotcha.

 

[Andydodge]

Bill & Gunni I mentioned the HAMB purely as a place that could give some info, I do agree tho' that there are some on there that maybe full of it...........lol..............main thing is to get as much info and make your own decision.........andyd 

[gunnibronco]

5 minutes ago, Andydodge said:

Bill & Gunni I mentioned the HAMB purely as a place that could give some info, I do agree tho' that there are some on there that maybe full of it...........lol..............main thing is to get as much info and make your own decision.........andyd 

No problem at all. I've received some good help there.  I'm very familiar with the larger forums, I've been on 4x4 forums for years.  I'm all too aware of the chances of getting bad advice.  Mostly I just needed to confirm what I remember reading years ago when I first bought my 331.  

Between my advice here and on the HAMB I think I've made a decision how to move forward that will help me build the right motor for my car.  I just have limited time to put my name on a set of heads so the seller doesn't sell them to someone else.

Thanks again.

[Andydodge]

Years ago when I was building the 40 Dodge.....like 1973/74 I intended to install a 392 Hemi, but here in Oz they were never sold and were and are RARE.....found one and the deal included a 392 in pieces that needed a full reco but also included a new set of blower button pistons and an intake for a 6-71.......I made an offer on the lot, but when I went to pick up and pay for everything the guy decided to keep the piston set.....these were the deal maker as I had worked out who I could on sell them to and obtain a set of standard pistons and a few other bits as well and still use the intake on a mild blown engine.........so the deal was off and I upgraded the already installed 318 Poly with a crossram setup, twin 4's, big cam, histall converter etc.............lol..........ah, the days when i was young & silly..........lol..............andyd 

[Adam H P15 D30]

On 11/30/2019 at 7:11 AM, mrwrstory said:

I also forgot to mention,....beware of HAMB input!!!  Lotsa inexperienced opinion.  Ya know they're like a-- h---s.  Everybody has one ?

Yeah but the H.A.M.B. has this:  https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/hemi-tech-index.118764/

Well worth the read

[gunnibronco]

58 minutes ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

Yeah but the H.A.M.B. has this:  https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/hemi-tech-index.118764/

Well worth the read

 

That is where I've spent a lot of time, and got some good answers.

[classiccarjack]

I will be doing a similar build.  I decided to use the 1954 "oval exhaust port" heads.  They will flow well.  I will also use one of my 1954 4 bbl intake manifolds.  This prevents cooling system issues, and also having to run the 1955 up camshaft.  I don't want to build a expensive Frankenstein, so I am taking a smarter yet simpler approach. My cragar adapter is for the Caddy LaSalle 3 speed.  I bought a 1937 top shift transmission, I am going to machine it to accept the later 1940's internal gears/shafts so I don't hurt it with my Hemi.

 

Note:  I am thinking of doing a second build, and machining a adapter for a real transmission (A833 Mopar).  Everyone seemed to make adapters for weak transmissions back in the day, and currently for that matter.  But a mild build should work in my case with the Caddy trans....  It's sacriledge I know, but it's the only piece of GM junk that I could find that would keep it simple, and put the shifter up close to the original location of my 34 Plymouth Coupe.

 

If one of my extended bell engine blocks checks out, I will go the 354 1/8" over bore.  I have a set of stock 354 rods and pistons that I can use.

 

I have later blocks, but see nothing wrong with the extended bell set up.  I prefer manual transmission set ups anyway...  

 

Please keep me posted on what you end up doing.  PM me if you like.  I have spent a couple of years researching and gathering parts for my set up...