46 P15 Canister oil filter hose routing question

[3046moparcoupe]

Reaching out to my forum members again for clarification. I appreciate it guys.

 

Today I figured I'd mount up my re-conditioned starter and generator to allow for getting the coiled up generator leads routed and terminated and I've got some honking 2/0 battery and ground cables, terminals, connectors, etc.. sitting here waiting to go on the car.

 

Stabbed the starter, bolted it up, and was immediately reminded of something I had noticed and since forgotten about , once I started taking this car apart a few years back.  One of the in and out oil lines between the block and the canister type oil filter, tries to lay on and rub the back of the starter. It's the line that comes out of the bottom center of the oil filter. I experimented with loosening the clamp that holds the filter housing and tried rotating the canister clockwise - which (if I went far enough) would produce a small clearance between the hose and the rear of the starter, but then the upper hose is now over in the way of the shift linkage,...

 

I messed with it for a while, thinking I might could find that exact right sweet spot (by rotating it both directions and also moving the entire canister up and down in the circular clamp that holds it in place to the block. I also loosened both of the nuts that attach the Cannister brkt/clamp to the block to make sure the entire bracket was as far towards the front of the car as possible. (which it was, I did however notice that both holes in the Cannister mounting to engine block bracket were oblong shaped to allow for some forward/backward movement...my 1st thought was that it would be easy enough to increase the width of these oblong holes a bit and I could gain some clearance that way),..if nothing else presents itself to remedy this..

 

Anyway - it got dark thirty on me, and as I was putting tools up and staring at this thing a bit, I began to wonder if possible the entire assembly should be turned so that the hoses are actually pointing more towards the driver inner fender ? This would get them away from the shift linkage and the rear of the starter....hummmmm ?? I doubt these are the original hoses, who knows whats been put on here ??

 

Being somewhat outta gas, and with it being dark thirty, I came inside and grabbed my camera and took a picture of the way this setup looked when I got the car,  how it exists today,.. and I have attached the pic to this post.

 

Could any of you P15 folks out there possible reply with a picture of how this setup is supposed to look ?  or if a picture isn't possible, an explanation of how your hoses are routed would be great as well. In looking at these hoses tonight, I noticed that the one that's been laying on the rear of the starter is starting to show some signs of cracking where it bends, so I'll go ahead and replace them both.

 

Might be a good time to look into getting rid of the canister filter assembly and going with a modern style spin on filter conversion.  I've got the dual heater setup, so there's really no room on the firewall and my driver side inner fender has really become congested with electrical.....I should be able to build a bracket that would allow the spin on filter base to mount up to the block where the old cannister filter mounted, anyway - any help, direction, pictures related to either the correct hose routing for the old style canister filter, or in regards to converting to a modern spin on style filter would be a lot of help.

 

Thanks again for your time and all the help.

 

Steve

[rallyace]

Hoses are a repair someone made at one time. Usually they are connected with steel tubing.

[3046moparcoupe]

Thanks Rallyace. That would explain the clearance issue. I'll plumb this all back in with  hard metal lines. I appreciate it.

[Pete]

Can you turn the canister 90 or 180 degrees if you loosen the hose fittings? That should get the hose away from the starter. If you turn it 90 degrees towards the driver's side the canister oil drain will be a lot more convenient. And I second the idea of replacing the hoses with metal tubing.

Pete

 

[9 foot box]

   I think the lines are wrong on the block. Oil should flow to the outboard port of the filter and return out the bottom. 

 

[Merle Coggins]

5 hours ago, 9 foot box said:

   I think the lines are wrong on the block. Oil should flow to the outboard port of the filter and return out the bottom. 

 

 

That all depends on the filter design. Some feed in from the bottom and return out the upper side. I know that mine is that way.

 

I would ditch the rubber hoses and rig up some hard lines that would clear the starter.

[3046moparcoupe]

Thank you Pete,  9 foot box, and Merle. I sure appreciate the input. Don't know that I've heard from Pete or 9Ft before, but Merle has helped me out many times, as I think I'm probably the "KING" of the question asker's here on the forum That said, the senior forum members here really deserve a big THANK YOU shout out as I don't think I've ever asked a question here on the forum that hasn't been addressed, and typical very quickly. Best forum (or I should say forum members anywhere).

 

Pete, that was my last thought before pulling the garage door down last night, after starring at this for a bit,....if I clocked the entire cannister 90 degrees clockwise, it would pull the hose away from the rear f the starter and the upper hose looked like it would have enough slack in it to allow for the turn...at that point however I decided to pull the garage door down and reach out to the forum for some experience. As usual it payed off, as both Merle and Rallyace were kind enough to confirm that these lines should be metal, which makes perfect sense. I can make them up just like a hard brake line and they will be out of the way and way more reliable, than hose.

 

As far as which line goes where..one thing I've learned during the 5 years working on this project is to not assume anything is correct,...(I'll be honest here, at first I thought it actually might not matter, as long as the oil did pass through the filter), however I didn't want to leave it at that, so before posting this reply, in effort of trying to confirm which hose goes where , I tried looking at pictures I could find on the internet, here on the forum and just on the internet itself. Basically in the pictures I found that did show the in and out routing, as Merle stated "best as i could tell in the photos I found it done both ways", so I still didn't have a confirmation on this...then I found a diagram that Don Coatney had posted in the past, which really seemed to help. I've attached some of the pics "which seem to show it done both ways" and also Don's diagram "which in my mind is the answer I needed. Reason I say that is (when I compare some of the pictures I found, to what I see on my engine),  it seems like all the ports on these blocks were not made exactly the same way. 

 

The two ports on my engine are one above the other, with the top port threading in horizontally into the block (in my mind - this would have to be the #3 bearing oil passage galley port shown in Don's diagram ) as this port is in direct line on the engine block with the other 4 bearing ports shown on the diagram. The diagram shows this port as "IN" to the filter, and it would make sense that this port is connected to the same oil pressure being used to lube the bearing. The lower port on my engine is threaded vertically into the casting of the block, and as shown in the diagram that is the filter outlet side to engine block return port coming from the bottom center of the oil filter. All that being said and shown, It would appear to me that 9 ft box might just be correct in his statement that the lines on this cannister filter are hooked up backwards, but again - I know Merle has mega experience and I need to better understand what he meant when he said "filter design".

 

Merle am I anywhere close to understanding this and getting this correct ?

 

Or in your previous reply back,  if you were meaning that the difference is in the construction of the actual filter element itself, I am using a Wix 51010 filter....on the top lid of this cannister housing is says to use a WIX PC-10 filter and per the Wix Filter web site cross reference, the Wix 51010 filter is the replacement for the old PC-10.

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2019 by 3046moparcoupe

[Pete]

If you remove the canister from the engine give it a good cleaning. I did this on mine and found not only were the inlet and outlet marked on the canister under the crud, but a PO had plumbed it backwards. And yes, not all brands do the inlet and outlet the same way. I think the manual diagram you posted applies only to the factory installed canister. After market brands do it their own way.

 

Pete

 

[Merle Coggins]

Yes, you are correct on your pressure/return connections at the block. If you look at the upper one it is part of a full length ridge along the block that is the oil pressure gallery. I believe there are 4 plugs along this gallery. One of them is used to feed oil to your filter. The bottom connection point is just above the oil pressure control valve. The oil returning from the filter has to pass through this valve. (I believe Mr. Coatney has a good cut-away photo of this valve showing it's operation) When the engine is producing good oil pressure the valve will open to relieve the excess pressure and dump it back to the sump. At this time it also opens a path for the return oil from the filter to return to the sump. If the engine oil pressure drops below the working limit of the valve the valve will close to maintain all pump flow to the bearings. At this time it will also close off the return flow from the filter to ensure that all oil flow from the pump goes to engine lubrication.

 

As for the filter connections, this depends on the manufacturer. You state that you have a Wix filter housing that calls for a PC10 filter element. And, as you have stated, this crosses to the modern Wix 51010 filter element. This is a cellulose (pleated paper) type filter element. Pleated cellulose filter elements are typically designed to filter from outside-in, which would require your feed like to connect to the outside of the canister so that oil will fill the canister and flow through the filter to the inner tube, where it can return to the engine.

 

One of the photos you posted above is my engine with a filter from the Deluxe Filter Company, and it calls for a JC filter element. This JC element crosses to the Wix 51011, which is a sock type element. I prefer the Baldwin JC405 as I find they fit the canister better.

 

In my Deluxe filter the canister is stamped at the ports, IN and OUT. The OUT is at the top side port. In this filter setup the oil enters through the center post, flows through the sock type element from the inside-out. These filters are a tight fit into the canister so the oil has to migrate up through the filter media to the top of the filter where it can then flow back to the sump. Under the cap is a perforated dome that holds the filter element below the return port and squeezes it tight into the canister.

 

As Pete said, you may need to clean and inspect your filter canister to correctly determine which port is truly the Inlet and which is the outlet. If you haven't had the cover off in a while it may be time to do that, and replace the element. That will give you the opportunity to study the filter canister a bit more.

 

Merle

[Dodgeb4ya]

And more pictures..

[3046moparcoupe]

Thank you Merle, (DB4YA and Pete),..well Merle (last night the more I thought about your previous statement it dawned on my that you had to be talking about the filter cartridge itself when you stated that flow direction would depend on the filter design).  So I called WIX Customer Support this morning to ask them and they dodged the question every way they could, just simple would not answer it. I got reply's back like this:

 

(QUESTION) Which was is oil flow in and oil flow out for this filter ? (ANSWER)  when you put the filter in, have the bail wire handle pointing up.    

 

No sir, I'm sorry let me explain my question again, I should have been more clear

 

(QUESTION): Which way should the oil flow through the filter ? Should it come into the filter from you pressurized oil output port on the engine block into the filter cartridge through the bottom center hole and exit the filter cartridge through the side walls to return back to the engine block ?  (ANSWER) There is no pressure in a bypass filter setup.

 

(QUESTION): Does it matter which way the oil flows through the filter ? Does the filer cartridge element care which way the oil moves through the filter for it to do it's job ? (ANSWER): It's an enhanced cellulose filter with some additional material for support in it, with no anti drain or bypass valve in it. 

 

(QUESTION): Does this pleated style filter cartridge care which way the oil flows through it to do it's job ? Like my home AC pleated fiber filter does, where you have an arrow on the side of the filter showing which was is in and which way is out for proper air flow filtering ? (ANSWER) My documentation doesn't show anything.

 

Well, I appreciate your time with this, thank you and have a nice day....:)

 

Merle , he did know that a by-pass filter doesn't filter all the oil, that it only filters a portion of the oil as the engines running,...and he didn't sound like a young kid,....but it was like trying to count hen's teeth to get an answer from him,...a lot of long moments of silence.

 

Well, I appreciate your help with the detailed reply back, showing the WIX filter itself, confirming the numbers I gave you, and stating that per your understanding, most pleated cellulose filters filter from the outside inwards, which is the way this cannister is currently hooked up. A little over 4 years ago, when I got the car, one of the first things I did was remove the cannister, clean it out, and while it was off the car I painted it to get rid of any cancer,....when I put it back together, I did a non detergent oil change and put the new WIX filter in it. I don't remember any markings on the filter itself (in /out), and I don't see any markings on the pictures of the filter shown on the Wix web site, but since I'm gonna re-plumb this cannister anyway with hard lines, I'll take the lid off, remove the filter and check it again to see if there's any markings showing in and/or out. if I don't see anything, I suppose the best I could do would be to hook it back up the way it is now, which does agree with your comment about "most pleated style cellulose filters filtering from the outside - in....

 

Steve 

[Merle Coggins]

27 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

 

 

Interesting that this "Installation Instruction" shows two different types of filters, with reversed flow patterns, but only references the one filter element. Maybe they filter both ways well enough? That goes contrary to everything I've learned about filtration.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Merle Coggins

[Merle Coggins]

The way it's plumbed, according to the picture you posted initially, the oil is flowing inside-out. The pressure line is going into the bottom center and the return line is at the upper side.

[3046moparcoupe]

Merle, you are absolutely correct, MY BAD,...I should have looked back at my picture before just speaking off the top of my head. You'd think as much as I've looked at this I could remember. I suppose it's all starting to run together a bit. But YES, you are correct. Therefore in agreement with your understanding of how cellulose pleated filters work, these lines should be reversed. Sorry about that, and thanks for going the extra mile and pointing out my mis-spoken error . I appreciate your thoroughness and extra effort.

 

S.

Edited July 11, 2019 by 3046moparcoupe

[3046moparcoupe]

Merle, I was looking again at the diagram that DB4ya posted, and that you were good enough to commented on,  about seeing different flow patterns.

 

Am I wrong here, or is it showing two different style housings with the input and output ports opposite to each other (as far as the plumbing lines go), but when you look at the actual oil flow arrows inside the cartridges themselves, unless I'm mistaken they both appear to me to be showing the oil flowing from the inner tube area of the filter cartridge itself, outward. ??

 

Am I not seeing this correct and missing something here ?

 

thxs again,

 

Steve

[Merle Coggins]

You are correct. I saw it wrong the first time. But it still goes against everything I’ve seen on pleated oil filters. Apparently in a bypass application it’s not as critical. Maybe that’s why your filter cartridge is encased in metal. This would help support the filter media with an inside-out oil flow. Maybe your plumbing is correct after all?? 

[3046moparcoupe]

Thank you Merle, I believe we might have this cat skinned :), and I want ya to know  (here on my end) that your effort and sincerity to truly help is obvious, valued, and much appreciated.  Thanks for helping me work through this. When I drain the cannister and open it up to do the re-plumbing, I'll give everything a really close look for any kind of in/out markings, and if I don't find anything to the contrary, I'm gonna re-plumb it with the hard lines back the way it is currently, flowing from inside - out.

 

Steve

Edited July 12, 2019 by 3046moparcoupe

[Pete]

Hi. One more thought. As mentioned earlier, a PO had plumbed the canister filter backward. Before I corrected that, the dipstick would turn pretty dark within a few hundred miles of an oil change. Afterward, it stayed much cleaner and newer looking for many more miles. Also, there was a bunch of oil crud in the bottom of the canister to clean out during the change-over. The point being, look at the dipstick following your re-plumbing. It can confirm if you've done it correctly.

 

Pete