Help ID-ing Mopar Transmission

[keithb7]

Hi folks, I recently was given a free Mopar transmission. It sure looks like the one in my '53 Windsor Deluxe (C60 car model). Similar features and appearance. I figured, what a great opportunity to get in there and learn about the transmission found many of our cars here. Worst case scenario it does not fit my car, but I still can learn a ton from taking it apart and studying it. There are no local night school courses offered here on "Transmission Rebuilding for post war Chrsylers" . 

 

The tranny appears to have been oil free for decades. Governor, solenoid and backup switch are present, so bonus spare parts! Looking in at the gears they appear to in be quite good shape. I see "pin type synchronizers" on the main shaft. I see mention of an M6 transmission in my manuals. However this tranny has "K6" stamped on it. 

 

In one 1953 Chrysler shop manual I have, this transmission called the Simplimatic. The transmission section header reads: D44, S16, S18, C56, C58, C60 model cars.

Another Chrysler manual from 1953 calls it the Fluid-Matic transmission. This book covers C60, C56, C58, C59 model cars.

In my 53/54 parts book it calls the tranny a Presto-Matic transmission with Pin Type Synchronizer. This book covers C56, C58, C59, C60, C62, C63, C64, C66 and several more models.

 

You can understand my confusion here. Looking closely at the parts listed in my parts book for this transmission, I see many, many internal parts are shared among all these semi-auto M6 transmissions, for all model year 1953/54 cars.  First/reverse and second appear the same. V8 or L6 engine. The main difference appears to be third and fourth gear. It depends whether or not he car has a true torque convertor, or a regular fluid drive, to ID the right gear part number. Or a pin-type synchronizer. Maybe when I get this tranny apart I can find part numbers on the actual gears, then I can confirm if this tranny came out of a true torque converter equipped car? If it was a T.C. equipped car, I may have a good match here for my 53 Windsor is seems!

 

I cleaned up whatever markings I could find to try and ID it. Your help is appreciated.

Here are some pics and actual legible text:

 

Main housing: 1325567-5  K6

Output end housing is marked 1317860. I did  find this part number in my 1953/54 parts book. labeled as "Transmission case extension". So that definitely fits my 53.

Also marked C56 11752.  C56 I believe is Chrysler engineering code for 1953 New Yorker. Which has a V8. Am I right to assume this is the tranny, offered for the V8 equipped 1953 New Yorker?

 

Thanks for your comments and sharing your knowledge. = Keith

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not sure what this yellow paint below reads. Maybe "286"? Or "236"?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by keithb7

[Dodgeb4ya]

That's a 53 Chrysler Fluid Torque Drive M-6 Transmission.

Simpli-Matic is DeSoto's M-5 2 range  transmission up through 1948

Presto-Matic is Chrysler's M-6  2 range Ttransmission for 1949-1950

Fluid-matic was the non torque converter 2 range M-6 Trans setup for 1951-53 chrysler

Fluid Torque Drive M-6 Transmissions used  different gear ratio's than Fluid-Matic cars

Also there are M-4's , Hydraulically Operated, Tip-Toe Shift, Gyro-Matic and more and more names for these converters and 4 speed transmissions used from1941-53.

The new Pin Type Syncro's as I remember started in 1953.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Dodgeb4ya
Posting incorrect info!

[keithb7]

@Dodgeb4ya this one has the pin synchronizers. Does the stamped C56 imply it was originally built for and installed in a  V8 NY’r? Are you aware of any differences in the transmission mounting dimensions for the NY’r compared to my Windsor L6 engine?  I am aware that the V8 had the sump type torque converter with cooler. My L6 has the engine-fed torque converter. Seems to me that this tranny may be a good fit for my Windsor. Powertrain gear ratio differences between the L6 and V8, if both have T.C. seem to be at the differential. 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Yes it was built for the 1953 N-Yorker.

There can be differences in the U-joint yoke style and size and side cover lever differences plus the input shaft length... and I'm not positive but I think the 6 cyl FTD input shaft is a little shorter than the V-8 FTD input shaft......

So you need to be careful and pull your trans to do a comparison at least on the input shaft.

The 6 cylinder converter is a smaller different design than the bigger V-8 TQ... reason for a difference in the input shaft length differences. 

[keithb7]

I got under my ‘53 Windsor today with a flashlight. The housing number stamp on mine is the same at 1325567 although “-7” compared to “-5” on the one I was given. Likely a production date code I suspect. 

 

Stamped into the the shiny flat machined surface, where this one above reads “C56”.  Mine indeed reads “C60” which is the engineering code for my 1953 Windsor. 

 

This has been a fun exercise. Further comparing and developments will be shelved until I have my Windsor tranny out sometime.  Not 100% sure when that will be. I am thinking of sealing up a few oil leaks this winter. We’ll see. Maybe more to come at that time.

 

Thanks Dodgeb4ya. 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by keithb7

[keithb7]

I have been poking around in manuals and studying this M6 transmission. Learning how it actually works. Hydraulic actuated. Pretty neat I must admit. Those Chrysler engineers were pretty advanced in my opinion. For the mid-40’s when this was designed. In my opinion it seems to have relatively few moving parts for an average auto transmission. I suppose these are not quite average mind you. 

 

I am going to take this spare tranny apart and study it further. Too interesting for me. I really want to get in there and learn. I cannot contain myself. It is siezed up anyway. 

 

I am attempting to pull the park brake drum off. I need a puller. Will try my wheel drum puller this weekend, but may be too big. My other pullers including my slide hammer adaptors are too big as well. 

 

I’ll keep updating the thread if there is any interest in following along. I can post pics to keep it interesting. 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by keithb7

[Dodgeb4ya]

The drum probably will come off with just a few taps with a mallet. Most do....

[greg g]

Check the Imperial Club website.  The repair section has the old film strip style tech's training presentations.  I believe for both m4 and m6.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Some special Miller tools required for internal parts R&R.....

[keithb7]

Thx Dodge. Yes I saw that in my shop manual. Was going to take it as it comes and see what I can pull off with some ingenuity. We’ll see. Maybe I will become stymied. 

[Dodgeb4ya]

The piston is the only real toughie to do with out the compressor tool....

[keithb7]

5 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

The drum probably will come off with just a few taps with a mallet. Most do....

 

Not this one. It's stubborn. I will try backing off the manual adjuster next to be sure the shoes are fully released. If still no go, I will try a puller.

[keithb7]

Man, that was stubborn. Finally got the park brake assy off. Everything was rusted bad. Shoes were even somehow frozen to the drum. Mice and bugs had settled in there at some point it seems. Been a loooong time since the park brake has seen the light of day. 

 

My larger wheel drum puller got it done. Not easily, as I had to adapt various spacers to it. 

 

The good news is the tranny now turns freely in high & low range as well as reverse. All seem to function properly. The rear housing section will be coming off next. 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by keithb7

[keithb7]

Lots of reading and studying the transmission, trying to truly understand it's design and function. It is a rare treat to have a spare real example to took at the poke around. Yet my car is still drivable. I pulled the rear housing assembly out. Things are really starting to sink-in now. I have one question for the transmission experts. I can't seem to wrap my head around one thing. Maybe Mr. @Dodgeb4ya, who has been helpful so far can explain.

 

When the operator selects either 1st (low range) or 3rd (high range), once a certain ground speed it met, the governor switch opens up. The solenoid is now de-activated and the ball is pushed off it's seat by a spring. Pressurized oil now fills the back side of the enclosed piston, and it moves forward. This movement engages the shift fork on the direct speed clutch ring. Then the power from the engine, goes straight into the main shaft, and straight through, out the rear of the transmission. This is called direct speed range. Also at this point the countershaft overrunning gear is dis-engaged and the transmission countershaft is freewheeling. What this means to the driver is, the car is not held back on a downhill slope by the engine and transmission. The car will continue to travel down the hill faster and faster without any compression braking from the engine, if at idle. Am I right so far?

 

For those wondering, my understanding is the tranny does lock and help control downhill speed in 1st and 3rd only. I seem to recall this, from driving my car. However now I am questioning my memory. LOL I need to go drive it again now.

 

From what I can understand, when the tranny is in direct drive mode the counter shaft is totally free wheeling. If that is so,  what is the gear ratio of direct drive? In either high or low range? What gears are engaged and how are the speeds controlled? If the counter shaft it freewheeling, I can't seem to understand how the selected gear, range (2nd or 4th now) has the power running through it. The whole mainshaft is turning now. Locked up to the input shaft. 

 

Any help appreciated. Thanks, Keith

Edited December 19, 2018 by keithb7

[keithb7]

Wait a cotton pickin minute. It just hit me. 2nd and and 4th gear lock up the freewheel clutch in the mainshaft. So 2nd and 4th help hold back the car on a hill. Not 1st or 3rd. Because as soon as you lift your foot off the gas to slow down on a hill, in either 1st or 3rd gear the tranny will shift into direct speed range! I had it mixed up. I get it now.  Had to walk away and clear my head.

 

So the high or low range gear chosen will have power going through it, via the locked up counter shaft. Eureka! These Chrysler engineers really has this system figured out well.  This simple tranny is tough, robust and is very well designed. Three cheers for the MOPAR engineering department.

Edited December 19, 2018 by keithb7

[Dodgeb4ya]

Some  powerflo info from the MoPar Doctor series..

Edited December 17, 2018 by Dodgeb4ya
spelling

[keithb7]

Thanks @Dodgeb4ya second gear was the trickiest to wrap my head around.  Engine power goes thru third mainshaft, down to countershaft, then is again reduced again thru 1st gear set. Wow. Add to that the over running  set on the countershaft is engaged, allowing  engine braking. Fascinating stuff. I’ve sure learned a ton about this tranny. By 

doing research I am reminded that several sources are best. Not all the info and little details are covered in one book or Master Tech video. I have 3 different factory service manuals, a Motors manual plus a factory parts book. I find myself flipping through them all. 

[Dodgeb4ya]

A lot or parts in em for sure...

[Dodgeb4ya]

[keithb7]

Great pics Dodge. Yours is much cleaner than my example. 

 

I have more Q’s. Ok to keep hammering you with questions? This thread has evolved into a discussion between you and I. Should I carry on here or send you a personal message? 

 

 

 

[Dodgeb4ya]

PM me if no one seems interested in M5 or m6 tranny's?

[Frank Elder]

 

 

I'm interested we can't learn from your pm's........although I have learned a few things from PMS.....lol.

[keithb7]

Ok I’m not holding back any more. Lol. I’m a fool to tear into this tranny. 

 

Please tell me if you will,  @Dodgeb4ya, what is your history with these trannies? You appear ro be this site’s resident technical expert on them. You clearly have been inside more than a couple!

Why? Career or hobby? 

 

 

[keithb7]

I can’t stop thinking about all the little steps to make second  gear work. I’m still missing something here in the power transfer through 2nd. 

 

According to the instruction above, when in 2nd gear the input shaft is coupled to the main drive shaft. Via direct drive clutch collar. Fair enough I get that. 

 

However in the above info on 2nd gear, it states that power travels down thru 3rd on the mainshaft, to the countershaft, then back up thru first. Via 1st counter shaft gear and mating 1st  gear on the mainshaft. I can grasp that 1st gear is coupled to the mainshaft via the hi/low range sliding collar. Yet 3rd is not coupled to the mainshaft. The collar is slid back and coupled to first gear. So isn’t 3rd  gear spinning freely on the mainshaft? Why does the above info, show that in 2nd  gear, the power travels down thru 3rd to countershaft, then back up to main shaft via first gear? Yet 3rd is not engaged to the mainshaft. 

 

I suspect this scenario has something to do with the overrunning clutch gear on the countershaft being locked on now. I just have not grasped that concept and the related series of events yet.  

 

Does this make sense @Dodgeb4ya  

Thx. 

Edited January 5, 2019 by keithb7

[Dodgeb4ya]

I used to rebuild them  M4,5 and 6's.for people.... kinda fell into it back in the early eighties..

Cannot find these trans parts much anymore and I am now retired bout 95% from working on the old Mopars.?