Looking for starting help/advice '53 Cambridge

[Zip196]

Hi all,

Been searching and trying all I can... I have a 1953 Ply Cambridge 4 door. Very original. She started and ran when I got her - every time, even after sitting for months. No brakes though. Got the master cylinder replaced and got to cruise her twice problem free. Drove well and handled as well as you would expect with 50+ year old tires. Bit the bullet and put some steelies and radials on and then she would not start... After messing around trying to figure it out she started. Took her out for a spin and she died at the end of the block at the bottom of the hill. Would not push start either.

The problem seems to be (to me) is like it is not getting enough juice to turn over. Sounds like when the battery is dying/weak. Battery is good and tested recently, bought last year. This week I put 2/0 cables from the battery and to the starter. She started once (after a bunch of no starts) and ran for about 5 minutes before shutting down. The wires going to the coil and starter solenoid are pretty bad looking so today I ran jumpers from the ignition/key switch to both and same effect - no start.

My mechanical knowledge is pretty limited especially with older 6 volt cars but I can follow advice and do research pretty well. I have clean gas, replaced the fuel pump and rubber line. The previous owner had some work done to tank (cleaned and possibly repaired - he has passed and I got the car from an estate sale). Battery is good. Looks like original starter and generator - they have the Plymouth tags. All lights and horn work. Changed oil and accessory filter.

Pretty much at wits end. I would really like to get her up and running and cruising. Any help or suggestions will be appreciated. Again I have very limited auto mechanical knowledge and finding a mechanic that works on these old gems is not easy. I am looking forward to trying different avenues and will provide any other info that I may have left out.

Thanks in advance!

[plyroadking]

I'd suggest pulling a wire off of a plug and hold it next to a head bolt or something grounded while someone else trys to start it. If you see sparks jumping from the plug wire end to ground you'll verify if there's spark. You'll need to pull the plug boot up a little so that you expose the end of the plug wire. Or you can stick a screwdriver in it to, ideally you don't want to touch any non-insulated part of the plug wire while trying this method. 

From the sounds of it, I'd suspect it's ignition related. Could be the ignition points are gapped wrong, or something shorting out in the distributor. If it starts when it's cold, then dies when it's warmed up, it's likely that the coil is bad.

[Don Coatney]

3 things required to start. Compression, fuel, and spark delivered at the correct time. If you don't have a service manual for your car I suggest you get one. Use a test light or an ohm meter to insure you have voltage coming from the ignition switch to the coil. Inspect in side the distributor for the condition of the points and internal wiring. Make sure the small wire pictured below is not frayed and shorting out. Make sure you have fuel getting to the carburetor. Check compression as detailed below.

[RobertKB]

Had similar problem last week with my '48 Dodge D25. Car quit on the road and would not start. Had lots of gas and gas going down carb. Had AMA, like AAA, so got home on a flatbed. Coil seemed ok but tried a known good spare without success. Pulled distributor. Points and gap were good. Put in new condenser and was going to put distributor back in car but noticed one wire looked a bit frayed and touching the distributor. On closer inspection I could tell it likely had been shorting out. Got a good replacement from a spare and put it in. Put distributor back in with rotor in same position as it came out. Turned key, hit starter button and immediate start. Still not sure if condenser or wire but leaning to wire. What appears at first to be a lack of fuel often is electrical. I strongly suggest you check out your distributor.

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by RobertKB

[knuckleharley]

I think the first thing I would do if it were me would be to remove all the battery cables and all the ground  wires as well as the hot wires going and from  the engine 1 by 1,and clean each one as well as the surface it mounts to in order to make sure there is a clean,solid connection.  As you clean each,re-install it before moving on to the next one. This includes the wires going to and inside the distributor,and the wires to the coils on both ends. Take note how the wires to the coil are hooked up to make sure someone that didn't know about positive ground systems didn't reverse them while getting the car ready to sell.

It should go without saying that you should remove the positive battery cable from the battery to avoid sparks while doing all this,and not connecting it again until you are done.

Intermittent starting problems are usually related to bad grounds. As you get to each connection to clean it,try to wiggle it a little to see if it is loose. If it is,chances are that is the culprit,but clean and tighten them all anyhow.

While doing this made sure you don't neglect cleaning the bottoms of the nuts and both sides of the washers. In some cases it may be best to just replace them with new ones,but that's up to you and how much time you want to spend doing this.

Something like a can of spray carb cleaner can be a big help washing away any accumulated oil and grease from the top/outside of all connections before removing them. Cleaning the whole area free of grease and oil before reconnecting them can be a big help to reduce the chances of this happening again.

If after doing all this you still have the same problem,start going down the list given by others.

[Los_Control]

You need to determine if you have a spark or a fuel issue.

A squirt of starting fluid in the carb will tell you one way or the other. If it dont try to fire with ether, you have no spark.

If it does fire or at least tries with ether, then you have a carb/fuel issue.

 

It kinda sounds like spark to me with what I have read. Checking for spark at the plugs as another poster described above is a good place to start.

I recently worked on a 1967 international no start. There was no spark at the plugs, but could see a spark at the points.

I replaced the cap, rotor, points, condenser. It tried to start once and then again, same issue.  No spark at plugs but points had spark.

I was told from others on another forum to try the condenser. I went out to the engine room and grabbed a 20 year old condenser and installed it and it fired right off.

The quality of these points and condensers you get now days is terrible. Points wear quickly and your lucky to get a working condenser out of the box.

The 345 international engine had less then 3k miles on a complete rebuild and new tune up done at that time. The condenser was bad and created hard start issues from the beginning, then it failed completely, then the new replacement was bad, and a 20 year old condenser works great at this time. I am told that the motor starts and runs better then it ever has before, with the old parts installed.

Reading stories around the rat hole, people generally have no issue running a points ignition. With the crappy quality of available parts today, they kinda lean to switching to electronic ignition to avoid the quality issues. I am leaning this way myself.

Just saying, I already suspect your condenser is bad just because.

[RobertKB]

Another easy way to check for spark is to buy a spark checker (not sure of proper name). This has a bulb and and is designed to take a plug wire at one end and to fit the plug at the other. The bulb lights up every time the plug gets spark. No light , no spark. You can run the car with it on which is kind of cool to watch, especially at night. They are quite cheap and a nice addition to your tool collection. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by RobertKB

[knuckleharley]

8 minutes ago, RobertKB said:

Another easy way to check for spark is to buy a spark checker (not sure of proper name). This has a bulb and and is designed to take a plug wire at one end and to fit the plug at the other. The bulb lights up every time the plug gets spark. No light , no spark. You can run the car with it on which is kind of cool to watch, especially at night. They are quite cheap and a nice addition to your tool collection. 

For some odd reason,the older you get,the better they seem to work. Especially in the daytime.

[Zip196]

Thanks for the replies fellas! First off she's a running and purring like a kitten! I did not really do anything mechanical. I pulled off the distributor cap and all looked pretty new inside, no frayed wire and pretty clean. It leads me to believe the gentleman that had it before me probably had it tuned up. I will go through the paperwork again. I also pulled all the spark plug wires from the cap and plugs to inspect and put them back. Seemed pretty clean also. I unbolted and repositioned all the pertinent contacts for ignition system - I will clean them all this week, which leads me to another question, all the points of contact have multiple washers in them including the ground. Is this normal?

I also plan on repairing the wire going into the coil from the harness that goes to the generator. It is horribly frayed and insulation is damaged. I am planning on cutting and stripping it back at a point where it is undamaged and slicing on a new piece. I also plan on doing this to the starter solenoid wire as it is pretty bad too. Fuel is coming in and I have her running on no ethanol gas.

Is there a simple way for a simpleton to check or test the generator? I used a multimeter (something else new to me) and it is showing 6.3 volts cold/off, 6.3 volts running, 6.08 volts running with lights on, 6.05 volts with lights on and car off for 5 minutes. Started her again and got 6.2 volts after a few minutes of running and then 6.28 volts after 30 minutes of being off/cold.

Any other tips or tricks will be appreciated!!!

[Zip196]

Thanks RobertKB! I just looked up the spark plug checker light and I am definitely picking up one of those.

[knuckleharley]

8 minutes ago, Zip196 said:

Is there a simple way for a simpleton to check or test the generator?

Yes.  Start it up,and with it idling,take a battery cable off. If it keeps running,the generator is charging.

Edited April 2, 2017 by knuckleharley

[Zip196]

Thanks knuckleharley. I have been looking online and saw that one.

I would like to add, all the voltage listed previously was at low idle. I will check at high idle soon.

 

[knuckleharley]

6 minutes ago, Zip196 said:

Thanks knuckleharley. I have been looking online and saw that one.

I would like to add, all the voltage listed previously was at low idle. I will check at high idle soon.

 

I am no expert on this,but I saw nothing out of line with the numbers you posted if your battery is new/good. Amp readings aren't going to spike unless the battery is low.

[Zip196]

Checked voltage with higher idle and it remained constant. Took off neg cable with it running and she died . Any ideas for a replacement generator?

Rock auto is my usual go to and they did not have any...

[knuckleharley]

5 minutes ago, Zip196 said:

Checked voltage with higher idle and it remained constant. Took off neg cable with it running and she died . Any ideas for a replacement generator?

Rock auto is my usual go to and they did not have any...

Don't waste your money. It might not even be the generator. It might be the voltage regulator. They have points and are adjustable,and on  old ones it is not unheard of for the points to stick and need filing and adjusting. You do the filing with a non-metal fingernail file.

And if it is the generator,they are falling off a log easy to rebuild since most of the time all they need is new brushings,bushings,and cleaning. Do NOT take it off until after you are certain it is the generator and not the voltage regulator at fault,and after you have cleaned the points and adjusted the contact arms in your voltage regulator first.

I should have told you this earlier. The very next things you need to buy is a Motors Auto Repair Manual that covers the year of your car from some source like amazon,ebay,or abesbooks.com. It will tell you everything you need to know about generators and voltage regulators,and give you good photos to look at while splain-in them to you.

The second thing you need to buy is a original or reproduction parts manual and factory service manual for your car. Between these books most of your questions now and in the future will be answered.

[austinsailor]

Chances are good you just need brushes, maybe $5. Get a set, some fine sandpaper to clean the armature and you are most likely off and running. Or, find an auto electrical shop and have them go through it. Not many around, but they still exist. Ask a farmer where they take theirs.

Buying a rebuilt one is expensive and a real crap shoot whether you'll get one that will last. If you can even find one.

Post where you are in Colorado and there's a chance someone can point you to a local electrical shop.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by austinsailor

[DrDoctor]

   I’ve seen many variants of washers on electrical connections—flat washers, lock washers, inside star washers, outside star washers, dished washers, pretty much the whole gamut. I’ve read, and was told when I was a youngster (I still remember being a youngster . . .), that one should use only star washers on electrical connections. It doesn’t matter whether they’re inside star, or outside star, washers. The edges of the twisted tabs dig into the terminals at the electrical connections, and ensure you’ll have continuity. I’ve also been told that using a flat washer immediately below the nut/bolt (between the nut/bolt and the star washer), is a good idea, as the star washer could deform under the pressure exerted by the nut/bolt. I’ve been doing this for years (more than I’m ready to admit at present . . .), and have found it to work very well.

[Zip196]

Thanks DrDoctor. I had all of them BUT the star washers. One on the + ground appears to be copper.

Thanks again, knuckleharley. I will give the voltage regulator a try first. And look for the books. I have the repro P15-25 service manual. It seems like it is in a foreign language though. Not really, it just takes me a LONG time to figure a lot of it out.

 

I am in Highlands Ranch/Denver metro btw, so any resources will be appreciated!

[austinsailor]

1 hour ago, knuckleharley said:

Yes.  Start it up,and with it idling,take a battery cable off. If it keeps running,the generator is charging.

I know that can work with an alternator, it puts out at an idle.

Generators generally don't make any juice at an idle, or so I thought. Guess I'll have to try it.

[knuckleharley]

14 minutes ago, Zip196 said:

Thanks DrDoctor. I had all of them BUT the star washers. One on the + ground appears to be copper.

Thanks again, knuckleharley. I will give the voltage regulator a try first. And look for the books. I have the repro P15-25 service manual. It seems like it is in a foreign language though. Not really, it just takes me a LONG time to figure a lot of it out.

 

I am in Highlands Ranch/Denver metro btw, so any resources will be appreciated!

The Motors Manual will be a big help when it comes to figuring out the factory service manual. It is written in plain language so non-mechanics can understand what is going on. I actually rebuilt my first engine as a teenager based entirely on the knowledge I got from a Motors Manual. It will be some of the best money you ever spent.

[knuckleharley]

7 minutes ago, austinsailor said:

I know that can work with an alternator, it puts out at an idle.

Generators generally don't make any juice at an idle, or so I thought. Guess I'll have to try it.

Huh? My experience has been the opposite. I have never heard of a generator that won't keep electricity going to run an engine,but have never seen an alternator that would. Alternators need a source of electricity in order to produce electricity,while generators create their own.

I don't know squat about new cars,so it is possible someone is making alternators now,or more likely electrical systems that store electricity,so the vehicle will run with a dead battery.

[Los_Control]

1 minute ago, knuckleharley said:

Alternators need a source of electricity in order to produce electricity,while generators create their own

Is a old trick I have used lots of times to guess if a car is charging, have used it on 60's, 70's, 80's models and you disconnect a cable and if it stays running it is charging.

Have also started cars with a good battery, then remove battery while running and install the discharged battery. Just because I had no other better way at the time.

And with modern cars, I would be afraid to even attempt such a feat, with all the computerized electronics.

 

But yeah, I also questioned if a generator was strong enough to keep a engine running with battery disconnected. Probably but not sure ... a 65 chevy with a alternator? No problem.

[austinsailor]

I don't recall unhooking a battery in a car with a generator while it's running, but I have with an alternator. It is correct that it needs an external power source to start, but once it starts charging it produces the power it needs to charge even if the  battery is disconnected. I have done that quite a few times.

i have to agree, though, that doing in on a modern system could very well cause spikes, etc and play hell with all sorts of electronics. A 60's or 70's car, no problem.

[Dartgame]

Regarding the running and remove battery cable test: 

I have not tried this with a 6 volt generator system. I have tried it with a 12 volt alternator system. With a negative ground you can pull the negative lead - if it continues to run then the charging system is working. I would think if you pull the positive lead the engine will die. (Could be wrong). 

Since this is a 6 volt positive ground. I would not pull the negative lead, but rather the positive lead ?

[knuckleharley]

1 hour ago, Dartgame said:

Regarding the running and remove battery cable test: 

I have not tried this with a 6 volt generator system. I have tried it with a 12 volt alternator system. With a negative ground you can pull the negative lead - if it continues to run then the charging system is working. I would think if you pull the positive lead the engine will die. (Could be wrong). 

Since this is a 6 volt positive ground. I would not pull the negative lead, but rather the positive lead ?

I haven't done this since I was a kid several years (decades) ago,but I seem to remember using a "loaner" battery from something else to start the car,and then taping the battery cable ends so they wouldn't ground out,and driving it across the yard with no battery at all in because I didn't have a battery that would fit in the battery box.