Canadian Dodge & Plymouth

[wayfarerstranger]

Can someone set me straight in the 1940`s & 50`s didn`t Canada have Plymouth cars with a Dodge grille & badging & visa versa  ? Like the one pictured below .

[1949 Wraith]

Here is a picture of my Canadian manufactured 1949 Dodge Special Deluxe. It is basically a 1949 Plymouth Special Deluxe with some Dodge badging and a few different trim pieces. It has the Plymouth drive train with the long block 218 with standard 3 speed. I have to order parts as a 1949 Plymouth for my car.

The US Dodge models in 1949 were the Wayfarer and had the short block 230 and I think Fluiddrive was standard.

[wayfarerstranger]

Thanx thats what i thought ?

[Andydodge]

Wayfarer.....we had a similar situation here in Oz from the late 30's thru to the late 50's in that Oz cars used both short and long engines even in the same year..........lol.........my 1940 Dodge originally had the 23" 201 engine but then for 1941 both engines are listed depending on the car serial number.......then of course in the late 50's in the Oz designed 1957 AP1 Chrysler Royal it depended on whether you ordered a standard trans, overdrive trans or Powerflite auto behind the six then you appear to have been given one or the other 230 short or 250 long six........at least if you ordered the V8 Poly then you got no choice, just the Powerflite auto.........I won't mention that I have both the 301 AND 313 Poly listed as the engine for 1957 to 1959 although the difference is just the bore..........yep, mother mopar did some strange things........and heres a couple of pics of my 1940 D15D Oz Dodge Sedan.........Plymouth body & chassis length, fenders, head & taillights, hood & bumpers.....Dodge grille, badges & RHD dash......but ever seen a 1940 Dodge or Plymouth with a rear centre armrest?......lol......the hotrod bits, ie, 318 Poly etc are my doing but the rest is Oz mother mopar........regards, andyd     

[wayfarerstranger]

I was told my another person that these aren`t really Canadian cars but cars that were built in Canada for export ? so i guess if that is so some of them didn`t get exported and that USA and Canadian Dodge & Plymouth`s are the same models just  big blocks in Canada.  This seems really confusing ?

[dpollo]

Nothing confusing about it if you start at the beginning. 1933.   Plymouth's first sixes looked too short in the front so a longer snout was used and under it was the longer Dodge frame.  Thus began the twinning of Plymouth and Dodge.   For each year thereafter until the Autopact of 1966, Dodge built a car on a Plymouth chassis and body which was trimmed out to look like the larger Dodge. These cars were built in Detroit for export and in Windsor for the Canadian market.  When Windsor opened its engine plant in 1938, all cars built in Canada used the longer block though the displacements almost matched their US cousins.  Canada also built the full size Dodge with Fluid Drive. This whole exercise had more to do with marketing strategy where purses were tighter but the upscale appeal of the Dodge name drew customers in.  Pontiac built a full range of cars on the Chevrolet chassis and Ford scaled down their Mercury and called it a Meteor.

[Andydodge]

Yeh, we also got some of those Ponchos on Chev chassis as well, but New Zealand appears to have got their Mopars, Frods & GM's direct from the USA without the Canadian complications............lol....andyd  

[Roadkingcoupe]

Also known as a "PLODGE"

Plymouth bodied Dodge badged Canadian conversions were often called Plodges (slang).

What I find interesting is that the Dodge grills for the Plymouth bodied Plodges looked like their American cousins BUT were a completely different animal.

Although the grills look the same they had to match the contour of the Plymouth front end and therefore they will not fit the US Dodge (not even close) .

(Most) Canadian Plodges had pot metal moldings instead of the stainless steel found on the US vehicles. They look the same but the construction was different.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Roadkingcoupe
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[Plymouthy Adams]

the very material often was not the same in the grilles, cast verse stainless stamped and spot welded..

[dpollo]

I don't think a generalization can be made about  the use of pot metal and stainless.  Stainless moldings are used on most Canadian cars with the exception of the grilles in 41  and 46 to 48.   The 49 pictured at the start of this thread has a stainless grill and fender mouldings as well as sill mouldings belt moldings, windshield and rear window trim and possibly the rear fender gravel shields.   My 50, 51 and 52s have also been predominantly stainless except for the gravel shields. which carry the same part number as the US 50 for all three years.

I have a NOS 41 grille which is a polished aluminum casting(s)  It does not carry a MoPar part # but looks the same as the ones on the cars pictured above.  Curious and Curiouser.

[Plymouthy Adams]

the 41 Dodge grille is cast in US and in Canada..but their relative size and shape though to the eye look the same are vastly different, I have two US 1941 D19s here at the house....the Dodge and Plodge of 46-48 were different  pre 49.  I have actually had in my hands a cast set of grille pieces for a P15...heavy and down right ugly...am sure before the finish went south they were quite sharp..on the who what when and where of these pieces, I am clueless.

[Roadkingcoupe]

20 minutes ago, dpollo said:

I don't think a generalization can be made about  the use of pot metal and stainless.  Stainless moldings are used on most Canadian cars with the exception of the grilles in 41  and 46 to 48.

I have a NOS 41 grille which is a polished aluminum casting(s)  It does not carry a MoPar part # but looks the same as the ones on the cars pictured above.  Curious and Curiouser.

You are correct generalizations are vague.

Specifically...

The 1939 Canadian Plymouth`s have pot metal moldings. the USA built 1939 Plymouth`s have stainless steel. Pictures available if necessary.

The 1942 1946 1947 1948 Canadian Dodges have pot metal grills the USA  built have stainless steel grills.

The 1946 -1948 Desoto S11 models have a pot metal grill. They were often used for taxis. As a result they often were in accidents.

I have had a DeSoto S11 grill made out of cast aluminum. It was NORS aftermarket replacement and was a rough estimation of the original.

I would generalize that the grill you have is a similar NORS aftermarket

 

[T120]

The Dodge D25 in Canada 1946-1948 was fitted with the plated pot metal grille in a shape that followed the contours of the Plymouth P15 grille,( front body and fenders)...

 

  

[Roadkingcoupe]

In addition to the grill, the parking light frames were pot metal on the D25 (part # 1161175 right / #1161176 left) and Stamped Stainless Steel on the D24 (part #1148784 right / # 1148785 left).

Part numbers: D25 Canadian pot metal Grill Left #1149210 Right #1149211 (pot metal two part grill)

USA built had a stainless steel one part grills.

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by Roadkingcoupe
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[Plymouthy Adams]

51 minutes ago, Roadkingcoupe said:

In addition to the grill, the parking light frames were pot metal on the D25 (part # 1161175 right / #1161176 left) and Stamped Stainless Steel on the D24 (part #1148784 right / # 1148785 left).

Part numbers: D25 Canadian pot metal Grill Left #1149210 Right #1149211 (pot metal two part grill)

USA built had a stainless steel one part grills.

 

while one piece ASSEMBLED, they are assembled of many stamped pieces and spot welded

Edited November 4, 2016 by Plymouthy Adams

[T120]

The Canadian Dodge D25 grille has a number of individual cast pot metal pieces,both vertical and horizontal with screws holding it all together. When assembled it is rather heavy in comparison to a stainless steel grille.

[Plymouthy Adams]

yes the cast units are quite heavy.....and I often wondered the WHY behind casting for some models compared to that of stainless on the other given the weight involved and further the added cost of polishing the cast for eventual plating....had to be way more costly in the long run.   I have a '73 and '74 model higher end personal sports car that is chocked full of heavy casting throughout the vehicle...adding an abundance of weight..stainless would have been lighter, lest maintenance to preserve the shine and overall look involved and am sure original cost would be less...its truly a looking rearward 20/20 item

[B-Watson]

 

The first Plodge was the 1932 Dodge DM Four.  It was built in Detroit for export and was basically a Plymouth PB with a Dodge front end and instrument panel.  

The next Plodge was the Canadian market 1934 Dodge DT.   In 1934 the Dodge DR was on a 117" wheelbase, 3" longer than Plymouth.  Dodge sedans were Plymouth units with 3" added in the rear seat area while Dodge coupes were Plymouth bodies with a 3" longer hood.  No problems making a Plymouth-based Dodge on Plymouth's 114" wheelbase.  Use the Plymouth coupe and sedan bodies with the shorter Dodge hood.

For 1935 Plymouth and Dodge shared the same body with Dodge DU having a longer hood.   The Dodge DV can easily be identified by the lack of the little grilles for the horns.  The DV was built in both Canada and the U.S., with the Canadian version being available in two series, just like Plymouth.

Contrary to what some believe, the Canadian Dodge DQ was not based on the Plymouth PD.  Yes, both used the Dodge DP's 111¼" chassis, but the DQ was introduced in November, 1932, as was the DP, and the PD in April, 1933.  A bit of difficulty in basing a car on something that would not be built until six months later.  The DP adopted a 115" wheelbase in April, 1933, but the DQ kept the shorter chassis.  The DQ was a lower priced version of the DP.  Similar to the DRXX being a less fancy version of the DR.

 

Edited November 4, 2016 by B-Watson
typo

[Roadkingcoupe]

On 2016-11-02 at 6:23 PM, Andydodge said:

Variations on a theme...

 

Variations on a theme...

The first photo is of a USA built 1939 Plymouth Stainless Steel Upper grill molding beside it is a CAST pot metal molding of the same part for the Canadian built 1939 Plymouth.

Second photo is the variation of a Canadian 1941 Plymouth and a USA built 1941 Plymouth Grill molding. BOTH for 1941 Plymouths but the CDN variation has a "rib" in the profile.

The third photo is a 1939 Canadian built Plymouth bodied Dodge or "PLODGE"

Edited November 4, 2016 by Roadkingcoupe
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[Andydodge]

Just to continue the confusion.......My Oz 1940 Dodge has stamped steel headlight surrounds yet the majority of 1940 Oz Dodges I have seen have had the cast pot metal surrounds.......both versions of course are in reality 1940 USA Plymouth, but why both diecast and stamped steel....the diecast go pimply, the steel ones just rust out but at least can be welded and rechromed which I have done..........my car also has a cast brass hood ram mascot yet I've seen pot metal versions......and all the Oz 1940 Dodge upper and lower grilles I've seen are made from brass strips and pressings soldered together with mild steel vertical strengthening pieces yet on USA ebay there is a one piece diecast alloy lower grille assembly that I'd be surprised if mopar did(its extremely rough in appearance) but its supposedly an original nos piece..........oh to know the reasons for some of the little things on our cars............lol...........andyd.    

[B-Watson]

I suspect the reason for the castings instead of stamped steel is cost.  The cost of tooling.  T J Richards had to tool parts for a few thousand cars while Chrysler of Canada was for a little over ten thousand units for grilles and around thirty thousand for items shared by Plymouth and Dodge.  Making a mould is less expensive than tooling for a steel stamping.  And you do not need large, heavy machines to stamp the steel into the shape you want.  Any foundry could make parts from moulds.

For Australia, the cars built there were not built by Chrysler, but by the distributor that had the rights to market Chrysler Corporation cars and trucks in Australia.  The distributor imported chassis from North America, contracted a firm to build the bodies (T J Richards, Holden, and others over the years), assemble all the parts into a car or truck and market them.  The distributor thus had to acquire and maintain a dealer network, keep a supply of parts on hand for their dealers, and supply the dealers with cars and trucks.  Which is why there are differences in the equipment on Australian cars.   In 1951 Chrysler Corporation took over the distributor and T J Richards to form a new subsidiary, Chrysler Australia.

If you look closely at Andy's 1940 Dodge you will see it is an updated 1939 Dodge body.  The windows in the doors, the double square rear window, the trunk lid and the contouring of the rear all are 1939 styling points.  T J Richards had to pay for the tooling for the body and thus used the 1939 body through 1948 in order to cover the costs.  And use castings for short run items like headlamp doors. 

Bill

Vancouver, BC

[BobT-47P15]

There are some really cool looking Plodges in the mid to later 50s and into the 60s.  

I purchased a steering wheel a few years ago from an ad on this site.......it has a Dodge

horn center, but appears to be exactly the same wheel as my P15.  Have been saving it

for a spare for possible future use.  It is in perfect original condition (brown in color),  whereas

the wheel on my car is painted maroon to match my dash.    It was listed at a cheaper price than

the Plymouth ones on eBay at the time.  

[Andydodge]

Bill..........interesting comments but I have seen the cast pot metal 1940 Plymouth surrounds advertised on US ebay as supposedly NOS so would not think they were Oz only, likewise I've seen the stamped steel one on US ebay...............lol........who knows?.........andyd  

[Roadkingcoupe]

Bill...thanks for the factual input and excellent information. Always a pleasure to read your posts. 

Andydodge....the pot metal vs. presses metal (over a steel armeture) headlamp bezels  (doors) were also available in both variations on the 1941 Plymouth's in the US as well. They were OEM Mopar and have separate part numbers as listed in dealer parts books.

[eh dubya]

On 11/3/2016 at 4:02 PM, Andydodge said:

New Zealand appears to have got their Mopars, Frods & GM's direct from the USA without the Canadian complications

 

Pretty much all prewar US cars assembled in NZ are of Canadian origin with mopars having plenty of Canadian diecast and Plymouths badged as Chrysler, Desoto or Dodge. 

Australia's mixed bag is interesting, my TJR P7 came from Lynch Rd Detroit as a cowl chassis. The Canada Cycle Trading Co seem to have had some sort of deal importing from Canada alongside Chrysler US sourced parts.

A P7 display chassis presumably having outlived it's usefulness in Nth America promoting 1940 models at the NZ Centennial Exhibition...