Scarebird disc upgrade with oem MC 46 Ply P15

[3046moparcoupe]

Need to make a decision and move forward in regards to a front brake decision.///stay oem drum and shoe, convert to disc,...Scarebird ?? 

As previously stated in the forum, the customer service associated with Mr Akers alias "Old Daddy/Rusty Hope" is absolutely second to none, really good communication and a good product, we just shared a couple emails on this subject, and he mentioned how much he thought of the folks here on the forum - really nice fella. however I do like the method utilized by Scarebird, which allows the car to be easily converted back to stock in the future, if desired....due to the lack of drilling and tapping. 

Trying not to box myself in on this, that said -  the plan for now is to replace all brake lines, kit the oem mastercylinder and re-use it...(the oem brakes on this car did work when I purchased it and then immediately parked it and began taking her apart...master cylinder was not dripping, etc..but obviously I will take it apart and go through it...)

ANYONE OUT THERE RUNNING A SCARBIRD DISC KIT UP FRONT WITH THE STOCK OEM MASTER CYLINDER....... 1946 p15 Plymouth Club Coupe ??

I've seen on Scarebirds ebay web site, where the question was asked of them, " will the disc kit that fits the 46-48 Plymouth 10" drum, 3 hole spindle,....work with the oem mastercylinder ?" and the ebay answer/reply back was YES...

I realize my capitalized letters question above would be best answered by the Scarebird company itself,...but maybe some of my forum member brake guru's who've been there, done it, and "got the T-shirt   can provide some real world experience and knowledge to my on-going mopar education.....

From the forum archives I've learned enough to be dangerous, .... regarding valves, the master cylinder's elevation in respect to the wheel cylinder or caliper, etc....great info., but what I'm specifically reaching for here is in regards to the bore size of the oem master cylinder in conjunction with the Scarebird disc's,......I guess in the end just looking for a brake pedal that doesn't take an excessive amount of force and should last with proper fluid maintenance and normal driving conditions.

Thanks in advance for the help, all replies encouraged and welcomed. 

(Chuck thank you for your patience with me in regards to this, I appreciate it),...

Steve

[Plymouthy Adams]

Many suppliers has been discussed and cussed here on the forum...as many may not want to point out but a valid search on the subject and supplier of QUESTION  will provide a lot of interesting reading without those who posted in the past having to retype their very same words yet again...the search button is a very helpful resource...

 

as an update here I do not remember anyone going back to standard brakes after going disc....but then I do not recall everything....

Edited September 13, 2016 by Plymouthy Adams

[55 Fargo]

Do you really think you would convert back to Lockheed dual wheel cyl drum front brakes after disc?

Most likely not, unless your car is going to be a Concourse or Plymouth club resto.

So don't worry too much about ging back to stock, the new disc will confirm this on your first drive....

[MARK]

Have the same setup on my 53 B4B, ,should work fine when I get it on the road, easy bolt on kit

[rb1949]

Not in the market (as of now), But with limited skills, I would lean toward one that didn't require extra machining.Yet people seem to use multiple parts to get them working. I couldn't figure all that out what to use. For brake parts, the kit for my car lists parts from 6 different vehicles. I'm also easy to confuse. Good luck and report progress.

[Plymouthy Adams]

2 minutes ago, rb1949 said:

Not in the market (as of now), But with limited skills, I would lean toward one that didn't require extra machining.Yet people seem to use multiple parts to get them working. I couldn't figure all that out what to use. For brake parts, the kit for my car lists parts from 6 different vehicles. I'm also easy to confuse. Good luck and report progress.

that is why reading up in the archives is so very important and useful in the long run..more info found at your finger tips instead of waiting for that one person to reply....further...as it is often the case many components are mix and match and special made...getting the "recipe" along with the ingredients is just as if not  more important...and be sure in your checking that the company you intend to deal with has a good reputation for follow up and advice to guide you should you need it...

[3046moparcoupe]

Thanks everyone so far for the input, it is much appreciated....I'm sure I would never want to go back to the original drum brakes, but options (ability to convert back to original) are always smart...could add value in the future...

I agree with Tim, before posting this I read for about a week in the forum archives, (went through Don's experience with trying to plumb his dual master cylinder lines which routed on the wrong side of the unit ),...found the info on the member that had a very undesirable experience with the mfg in question here, in regards to customer service,..my understanding in the end, is that they did get the problem resolved,.. definitely something I don't want to go through,...but that said - that was the only bad experience I found in regards to this vendor, many other old posting I read listed folks who had used the SB disc kit with happy results...(do they get a gimme'' one time mulligan, ??).

I emailed Mark at Scarebird, in regards to using the stock oem MC with his disk kit and he stated back that the 1" bore should work fine...

again, if I've missed someone else out there with a horror story about this product, I'd sure like to know,...

thanks for the replys back, this is a great forum.

Steve

 

Edited September 14, 2016 by 3046moparcoupe

[55 Fargo]

Post any on topic related question you choose.

There is plenty archived, but new questions and more info is fine too.

Every thread on here most likely has been asked or discussed in some form or another in the past.

If everyone just used the search and never started threads, this would be a very boring go no where website.

The mentioned car is no longer being driven, needs repairs to be safe and roadworthy, and might be sold too, don't think that owner has disc brakes anymore, but not sure.

Use whatever supplier(s) you choose, nobody has a monopoly on upgrades for our needs...

[Plymouthy Adams]

1 hour ago, 3046moparcoupe said:

Thanks everyone so far for the input, it is much appreciated....I'm sure I would never want to go back to the original drum brakes, but options (ability to convert back to original) are always smart...could add value in the future...

I agree with Tim, before posting this I read for about a week in the forum archives, (went through Don's experience with trying to plumb his dual master cylinder lines which routed on the wrong side of the unit ),...found the info on the member that had a very undesirable experience with the mfg in question here, in regards to customer service,..my understanding in the end, is that they did get the problem resolved,.. definitely something I don't want to go through,...but that said - that was the only bad experience I found in regards to this vendor, many other old posting I read listed folks who had used the SB disc kit with happy results...(do they get a gimme'' one time mulligan, ??).

I emailed Mark at Scarebird, in regards to using the stock oem MC with his disk kit and he stated back that the 1" bore should work fine...

again, if I've missed someone else out there with a horror story about this product, I'd sure like to know,...

thanks for the replys back, this is a great forum.

Steve

 

foot wedge if anywhere close to the pin

[50 coupe]

15 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

foot wedge if anywhere close to the pin

I used Scarebird kit on my car. Installed a year ago I think. Easy. They send you what you need and include a list of the other items you need to get. I never did a disc brake conversion before and had no problems installing and it works great. 

[st63]

The Scarebird front disc kit is something I'm considering for my '50 Sedan.   I'm also considering upgrading to their dual master cylinder as well. Any particular reason you're not considering a dual master rather than OEM single? 

[3046moparcoupe]

st63, thanks for the replay back this way....I appreciate the question.....In reading all the past forum info I could find I don't believe I remember reading where anyone else had used a Scarebird dual master,....so I wasn't aware they offered one..

From what I read about the other dual master's folks had used - folks were having issues like:  even more difficult to access than the stock oem master, now the dual master is located to where another hole must be cut in the floor for access, also some had issues with the pedals being moved 1/4-1/2" from their original position.....then there was also the extra cost associated with the dual master.....(with these kits being more expensive for the mopar than for the chevy and ford ).

I've welded in floor pan and rebuilt the rockers on this car so moving the access port to the mc and trimming away at the pedal slots isn't out of my ability, however if there's a way around it I'd prefer to go that route....so I had decided I might just take it in stages , do the disk upgrade now and see what options might become available going forward regarding master cylinders..

Again , I wasn't aware of Scarebirds dual master - any info on that you could send this way would be appreciated....

I want the protection offered by a dual mc, but until that day,...and from the questions I've asked and from what I can tell about converting over,..I don't believe I would be making the brake system less safe than the original setup by just doing the disc conversion now and waiting on the dual mc until a later date (If I'm wrong here don't hesitate to comment),...In my mind, if it were a step backwards, it would have to relate to (if a leak is developed, would one system lose the fluid faster then the other, causing a quicker complete no brake situation ?),...(( have read where the fluid level must be maintained as the pads wear and the fluid level drops in the mc),...and so far from what I've read it seems there's no way to say one (drum or disk) would be worse than the other in this regard...so I figured I'd do the front disc's (also really like the idea of getting wheel studs rather than the old L & R hand thread lug bolts as I would like to put a chrome wheel (cragar /Torquethrust type) on the car..yet again, still I'd have the ability to go back to the original wheels if so desired.....and then work towards the best fitting dual mc setup I can find....

I'm not driving the car at this time,..I drove to Louisiana and picked the car up in July of 2014, backed it off the trailer into the garage, messed with the motor for a couple of weeks (pulled the oil pan and cleaned out the gunk in it, kitted the carb, new plugs, etc...) then started taking it apart to attack the worst cancer spots, etc....probably got another good 1-2 years before this projects on the road.....

Steve

[dale]

Ill convert to front discs when someone figures out how to keep the original wheels if ever.  Meanwhile Im still trying to get all of the air out of the system.

[dale]

WOW !! Checked out scarebirds site and their front disc kit will clear the stock wheels on a 46 Plymouth..    This is getting intresting.  Whats wrong with putting in a dual master cyl. up on the firewall like newer cars other then it being obviously incorrect..

Edited September 16, 2016 by dale
Added to it..

[55 Fargo]

Dale, on my 47 Chrysler, with OEM dual wheel cyl 11 inch brakes, I could easily put you into the front windshield,on a stomp on the brake pedal.

Yes disc are more modern, yes they deal with heat better, but make no mistake, Lockheed dual wheel cyl front brakes, properly adjusted and in good order, are very decent responsive brakes.

Trouble is, so many are not working or adjusted or setup correctly, having a front disc brake conversion is not a must, but a want, the OEM brakes work very well when in good order...

1 disclaimer, having modern V8s and a lot more speed and HP, may justify a disc brake upgrade, as well as a lot of other upgrades..

[dale]

Biggest problem is I cant get the air out of the system. So with spongey brakes its hard to tell whats good or not.  Tried about everything.. I suspect the front aftermarket cylinders.. Any trouble with brake fade on the Chrysler Rockwood  ? 

[55 Fargo]

2 hours ago, dale said:

Biggest problem is I cant get the air out of the system. So with spongey brakes its hard to tell whats good or not.  Tried about everything.. I suspect the front aftermarket cylinders.. Any trouble with brake fade on the Chrysler Rockwood  ? 

Pressure bleed, and follow the correct sequence, are you using Dot5, it is sometimes harder to get the air out, but it's well worth the effort, for any car that sits for long periods at a time.

I have had no brake fade, but have no hills here, hills, freeways, lots of heat, brake fade could happen on any drum style brakes much easier than disc.

Your car is a what SBC 350/350, do the front brakes in modern disc, heck put the MC on the firewall too, whats the difference now that it is basically rodded anyway.

If I went modern V8, I would not bother with the undefloor MC ever again.....

[st63]

Steve, I was mainly curious as to the reasons for sticking with a single M/C.  I've had a single M/C setup for years and never had a problem, but now that the brakes need attention I figured I may as well do the change over to front disc and dual M/C.  I like the Scarebird setup because it involves no machine work and I can retain the stock wheels. I agree with others here that the original brakes are fine when well maintained and at regular low speeds around town, but I do a lot of highway driving where it would be nice to have that extra stopping power that front discs provide (I'm lucky in that the previous owner of my car installed a Borg Warner R-10 overdrive unit,, so 75 mph is an easy cruising speed)  Anyway,  I found the thread where Don had issues with his ECI dual master having the outlet lines mounted on the wrong side, and his issues with having to move the pedal.   I definitely want to avoid that.  Scarebird says that their dual master will work with the stock brake and pedal linkage.  From their info, it sounds like they tailor the setup to your particular vehicle. Here's the link to their dual master:

https://scarebird.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=132&search=dual+master+cylinder

[DJ194950]

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Wilwood-260-7563-Tandem-Master-Cylinder-w-Remote-Reservoirs-1-Inch,9144.html

After looking at what Scarebird offered I did a quick check on what Speedway Motors offers for a similar product and found this one, sure a web search would find many more.

What I also noticed On the Scarebird site was the mount adapter that was included-a plus- but one could also build there own if needed.

As for Don's problem with the outlets of the M.C. being on the wrong side- there are many avail. M.C. now with outlets on both sides that come with plugs for the side not used.

$40-$60 on the speedway site. There are also adapter M.C. lids to adapt average dual M.C. to remote fill now days.

Just a couple of thoughts as  I have not used any companies disc brake adapters  on my old Plymouths. I do appreciate what they can offer as to straight stopping power and No adjustments.

I am lucky in that I was Given a Lockheed type brake shoe tool  (with a promise not to sell when I told the giver what the sold for now!)  for their adjustments-A Big help for sure with the old brakes. After they get set properly just the minor adjusters keep up with adjustments needed  for normal wear-no fancy tool required.

As said before -your choice!

DJ

[3046moparcoupe]

ST63, thanks for the attachment to the scarebird site showing the dual master,....yesterday I went to the Scarebird website and did a search under mopar and I didn't find any mastercylinders,. only disc kits.....so I emailed Scarebird this morning asking if they had a dual mc for a 1946 Plymouth P15, 218, manual 3 speed on the column, and they replied back that they did not ??

I just took a closer look at the master cylinder in the picture (since I could not find any fitment application info on the mc listing), and I'm sure your way ahead of me here on this, but the master cylinder in that picture is a 3 bolt unit for sure, but it's turned 90 degrees out of clock in respect to a P15's oem mc....so it would require some engineering and fab work...the price is good compared to the others I've seen....

Steve..

Edited September 17, 2016 by 3046moparcoupe

[st63]

I haven't contacted Scarebird myself yet....I was just going by what they had listed on-line. I'm going to email them a photo of my current M/C and see what they say. Like you, I'd rather not have to try to re-engineer something to make it "sort of" work...

[Dartgame]

For what it is worth I used AAJ brakes conversion stuff - front and rear disc brakes, and tandem master cyl bracket. Roger recommended using a corvette master cylinder , but I ended up using a master power brakes remote reservoir master cylinder due to floor clearance issues. Works perfect.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Dartgame

[Cruizin Deluxe]

Dartgame - Did you use part # MC1001MPK from Master Power? If not, what part number did you use?

[48ply1stcar]

4 hours ago, Cruizin Deluxe said:

Dartgame - Did you use part # MC1001MPK from Master Power? If not, what part number did you use?

It might be best to send Dartgame a PM.  He may not not read your post.

[Dartgame]

Cruizin - yes correct part number. I mounted the reservoir on the firewall to avoid siphoning problems thus eliminating the need for residual valves in the lines going front and back - I used disc brakes on front and rear. If you have drums on the rear you will need a residual pressure valve for them, 10 psi if memory serves me correctly.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Dartgame